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What do we know about Javelinas?

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URL: http://www.amtguns.info/forum_posts.asp?TID=2611
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Topic: What do we know about Javelinas?
Posted By: Pantera Mike
Subject: What do we know about Javelinas?
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2020 at 3:06pm
All,

Who has experience with the Javelina Longslide they can share?  I have always been irrationally attracted to the Hardballer Longslide although I have heard the quality of the regular Hardballer was horrendous. There seemed little justification for a 7-inch 45 ACP, but it would seem the platform would really benefit a stronger cartridge like 10mm.

I have been offered the chance to buy a Javelina Longslide that is “custom built by Karl Sokal” (whatever that means?) with an asking price of $2000.  Before I do something stupid, please help me determine if this is worth doing at all, and if so, what a reasonable price might be?  Supposedly it runs perfectly.

What is their reliability like? Although they look very 1911, do all the parts directly interchange or does it differ internally so that a parts breakage would turn it into a paperweight?  How accurate are they? I have an original Colt Delta Elite (not the later Gold Cup version) and it works great. I would hate to spend a bunch of money on an AMT that shoots shotgun patterns.

I promised myself no more guns......LOL



Replies:
Posted By: jkelley209
Date Posted: 16 Jul 2020 at 7:08pm
An AMT IV 10mm Long barrel sold yesterday for $3000.00 Rock Island Auction


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2020 at 7:10am
Asking a more focused question now—does anybody know the specific type of stainless steel used in their constriction? I know the metallurgy of the various components of the Auto Mag has been researched and that information is available, but I’ve never heard anything similar regarding the Hardballer and Javelina?

This isn’t just a theoretical question—I have a genuine need (or at least strong desire) to know.  Thanks!


Posted By: TRX302
Date Posted: 01 Aug 2020 at 11:32pm
Originally posted by Pantera Mike Pantera Mike wrote:

There seemed little justification for a 7-inch 45 ACP


I thought the same thing. The 7" guns just looked stupid. But I've been shooting a 6" longslide for a while now and I love it. The extra weight up front makes it a lot more stable when I point it. I was sort of keeping an eye open for a 7" AMT until prices started climbing, but Fusion makes a 7" slide now... the 7" guns don't look silly at all now.


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 2:35am
Originally posted by TRX302 TRX302 wrote:

Originally posted by Pantera Mike Pantera Mike wrote:

There seemed little justification for a 7-inch 45 ACP


.... the 7" guns don't look silly at all now.

I feel the same way about 8.5-inch vent rib Auto Mags. I always thought they looked faintly ridiculous but the look is starting to grow on me....


Posted By: wbautomag
Date Posted: 02 Aug 2020 at 3:04am
Mike I dont know what kind of SS metal there made of but if your wanting to know for a welding project I know that 308 rod works really well on these gun frames.
I also have a Javelina 10mm longslide and really like it shoots very well.


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 12:48pm
I see the seller on GB answered your question.

Did you win the auction Mike?


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by BEEMER1 BEEMER1 wrote:

I see the seller on GB answered your question.

Did you win the auction Mike?

Beemer—actually I didn’t see any on GB until just now. I wound up passing on the one I had originally been offered because it had been Cerakoted black. But then I bought a different one locally, which was essentially NIB. It had only 15 rounds through it and came with everything—box, paperwork, two original mags, four Metalform mags, range bag, and 485 rounds of (weak) Remington factory ammo. It also had Hogue grips and a mag funnel, both of which instantly went on eBay.

I would post pics but the forum software is getting finicky again and won’t let me. I will keep trying.

It’s magnificent. Extremely accurate, and easy to shoot. The 5.5 lb trigger is pretty awful. 

The longer barrel doesn’t help velocity as much as you might expect, only adding about 100fps. But recoil is noticeably lighter than my 5-inch Colt Delta Elite, and I think it’s more accurate than the Colt too (perhaps attributable to the superior sights and longer sight radius).

It hasn’t proven 100% reliable unfortunately although much of the problem can be attributed to the factory magazines which seem to be junk. 

The cycling seems a bit rough when compared to other 1911s, even with the spring removed. After firing 150 rounds through it I found the cause—there is an occlusion on the underside of the slide, a casting flaw apparently. The disconnector rides up into it whenever the slide moves forward or back, rather like hitting a pothole, which slows the slide and creates malfunctions occasionally.  I think it needs to be TiG welded then machined back to spec and then it should run perfectly. That’s why I was asking what kind of steel is used—I was considering having a local welder/gunsmith try to fix it. But the more I think about it...

Sounds like a job for our own William Bryant! Clap


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 6:08pm
And by complete coincidence, Gun Jesus just released a video on them this morning!




Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 6:49pm
Sounds like the rails could use a little lapping.

I have always stayed away from the AMT stuff except the auto mags.  I looked at so many at gun shows where the slide/frame fit was so rough and many were all galled up from improper lube.  I never saw one I wanted.

Good luck with it.


Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 6:51pm

Just my toughts, but a nearly new gun and you say you ran only 150 rounds through it, I wouldn’t do any work except use some coppergrease on all moving parts, shoot at least another 500 rounds and see if it will smooth up. Shooting those stainless pistols is like riding a bike on a gravelroad, you need to make a nice track to get them running well.

Had sort of same issues with my AMT IV’s and the coppergrease made them running well after awhile.



Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 7:09pm
Originally posted by BEEMER1 BEEMER1 wrote:

Sounds like the rails could use a little lapping.

I have always stayed away from the AMT stuff except the auto mags.  I looked at so many at gun shows where the slide/frame fit was so rough and many were all galled up from improper lube.  I never saw one I wanted.

Good luck with it.

Just like Auto Mags, I believe AMTs have always been long (in this case VERY long) on ideas but short on execution. But just like Auto Mags, I think with a bit of perseverance and effort they can be made as good as their appearance would promise. 

I hope I’m right!


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2020 at 12:49am
Luc, I hear you. I won’t be doing anything radical. But mine has a visible ‘pothole’ in the underside of the slide, and it’s enroute to William Bryant right now to get it repaired. It seems to be a casting flaw. I’m sorry the forum software won’t allow me to post any pics. But I’m sure he will be able to. 

FWIW I just now learned the guns were made of 17-4PH stainless steel.

Once I get it back I will break it in by shooting the hell out of it, keeping it dripping wet with Rig +P stainless lube to (hopefully) prevent galling. I use it on all my stainless guns including Auto Mags:

https://shop.birchwoodcasey.com/products/rig-p-stainless-steel-lube-1-5-oz.html" rel="nofollow - https://shop.birchwoodcasey.com/products/rig-p-stainless-steel-lube-1-5-oz.html

FWIW I spoke to their customer service folks awhile back and they told me they intended to discontinue it in the near future so I bought a truckload of it. It’s still available, so if you like it too, stock up now.....




Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 05 Aug 2020 at 6:18pm
Hi Mike,
what I tried to say was that coppergrease is not actually a lubricant, but a sort of lapping compound.
I learned that from Gaston ;-)
Back in the day all new Glocks were shipped with coppergrease on the rails and moving parts. You supposed to leave that on for the first shooting session and then clean and lubricate after that. I dont know if Glock still do that.
If I remember correct that was in their instruction manual also. (but no one read that anyway...)

Can't hurt to try...

https://www.greasemonkeydirect.com/blogs/news/grease-guide-what-is-copper-grease-used-for" rel="nofollow - https://www.greasemonkeydirect.com/blogs/news/grease-guide-what-is-copper-grease-used-for


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 06 Aug 2020 at 7:48am
Ah, interesting! Okay, I may give that a try when the slide comes back from William. I will let you know how it works out. Thanks!


Posted By: TRX302
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 11:47am
Ian referred to the safety as a "beavertail", but it appears to be a standard GI-shape safety. I noted the Commander-style hammer has been ground away on the back side so it will clear the tang on the safety.

Normally, a GI safety and a Commander hammer won't work together; the rounded end of the hammer will hit the tang before the hammer locks back. Many people prefer the look or feel of the Commander safety, and I've seen guns with notches ground into the tang, but this is the first I've noticed one where the hammer was ground instead.

I prefer the GI safety and spur hammer. When I built a stainless 6" longslide a few years ago I had a hard time finding stainless versions of those parts. I never could see the point of the beavertail; hours of tedious work to solve a nonexistent problem; at least I never got "hammer bite."


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 15 Aug 2020 at 4:13pm
I didn’t get hammer bite, exactly, but the relatively narrow and sharp-edged grip safety on the Javelina resulted in a small bloody wound in the web of my hand after 150 rounds. I recently had a NOS Pachmayr beaver tail grip safety fitted to my Colt Delta Elite and it makes it much more comfortable to shoot. It spreads the recoil impulse over a larger area, resulting in lower perceived recoil, and it eliminates the threat of peeling flesh from your hand. I may well fit a beaver tail on the AMT too—I’m still deciding. 


Posted By: Rocketthon
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2020 at 11:32am
Size of hand likely has something to do with "hammer bite".  With my big hand (yes AM's and DE's seem normal sized to me) all the excess flesh in the web goes somewhere, and can get between the grip safety and hammer spur.  On the good side recoil with a real big hand, especially with a strong forearm, is not a concern.  "Double taps" are easy since the gun does not move much under recoil.  My Series 70 Government really feels much better with the Wilson Combat beaver tail and lightweight hammer.

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When you are up to your neck in alligators it is hard to remember your original intention was to drain the swamp


Posted By: AndyC
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2020 at 12:47pm
I do get hammerbite with traditional 1911s - I have large but slim hands (and I have been running 1911s quite competently for decades).


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http://bane.2hell.com" rel="nofollow - My Iraq Pics


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2020 at 1:15pm
In this particular case, the hammer isn’t the issue. The edges of the rearmost part of the grip safety are actually sharp and there is a burr to boot. I still have a bit of a wound from the left edge of the safety and I fired it weeks ago. I just bought a drop-in beaver tail which hopefully will work with the GI-style hammer (most demand the use of a commander hammer).


Posted By: Rocketthon
Date Posted: 16 Aug 2020 at 10:49pm
You can bob the hammer to clear the beavertail but I don't think you are going to like the looks after you get enough metal off.

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When you are up to your neck in alligators it is hard to remember your original intention was to drain the swamp


Posted By: wbautomag
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 2:24am


Well there backwards but after allmost an hr. I finely got them posted for Mike this is the problem hewas having with the casting flaw the disconnector was dragging in the casting hole witch hethinks may have been part of his problem the pics. are of the casting flaw and the fix.



Posted By: wbautomag
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 2:34am
I swear *******  well it had all 3 pics. in the post till i posted it heres the repaired one




Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 3:00am
Once again William saves the day!

The two pics in his first post are reversed. The first shows the slide after he enlarged the ‘wound’ in order to weld it.  The second shows the original problem. And of course the last one shows it looking far better than new, and as it SHOULD have looked if AMT/IMI had built it properly. 

If you look carefully you can see other occlusions/casting flaws on the underside of the rail abeam the cocking serrations. Sheesh.....


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 3:03am
Meanwhile, today I received what was purported to be a drop in beavertail that would work with the bobbed hammer. It did in fact drop in with no fitting. However, it didn’t fit! It was vertically notably shorter and the tangs at the bottom swung right past the top of the mainspring housing. So back it will go and my hunt for a suitable one continues. 

I will try to post a pic showing the stock, razor-sharp safety with the too-shirt beavertail alongside....


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 3:05am
Nope, forum still gives error messages when trying to post from IPad. Maybe I will try from a PC....


Posted By: Rocketthon
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 11:29am
Whose beavertail did you try, some are made for "high melt" hand placement and require adjusting the frame to fit to the safety and then refinish the frame after matching.  My upgraded safety was from Wilson Combat and fit the series 70 without "high melt" modification.

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When you are up to your neck in alligators it is hard to remember your original intention was to drain the swamp


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 23 Aug 2020 at 5:34pm
My first one was from Fusion Firearms. It dropped right in with no fitting but was lacking in vertical height At the bottom, so wouldn’t work. I have since ordered one from Kimber and a generic one also. I will keep ordering and test fitting until I find one that works. I will not alter the frame. 


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 8:45pm
Another photo upload try.....



If you look you will notice that the edges of the original grip safety are almost knife-edged. The left one just tore my hand up....


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 24 Aug 2020 at 8:52pm
Okay let’s try uploading pics of the whole gun?








Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2020 at 11:26pm
Update: the slide is back from William and needless to say it is PERFECT!  Thanks again William!  Thumbs Up

The Kimber grip safety was hopeless and will be returned, but the generic one I got was identical to the one I returned already, except that one dropped right in and the new one needed a whole bunch of filing. I reconsidered the situation and decided that I shouldn’t have sent the first one back, so I took a deep breath and started filing the second one. 

After much faffing about, it’s installed (along with Pachmayr grips) and thanks to being substantially lower at the rear, it clears the hammer:








Here you can see the large gap between the bottom of the safety and top of the mainspring housing. This is why I returned the first one although in retrospect I should have just kept it!

Ah geez, that pic won’t upload for some reason. You’ll just have to take my word for it. 

It is now much more comfortable to hold. I plan to shoot the living daylights out of it!  Hopefully the trigger pull will improve with break-in, but if not I will have to find somebody that can improve that for me.

I really like this thing! 



Posted By: Luvz2Shoot
Date Posted: 01 Sep 2020 at 1:19am
Very nice and good to hear that William was able to fix it for you!

Thumbs Up


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If you were happy and you knew it, would you clap your hands?


Posted By: KMP
Date Posted: 11 Sep 2020 at 4:21pm
Speaking of Javelinas, what's the story on this?  http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/pistols/auto-mag-pistols/javelina-hunting-model-10-mm-pistol-custom-with-display-box.cfm?gun_id=101508282" rel="nofollow - http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/pistols/auto-mag-pistols/javelina-hunting-model-10-mm-pistol-custom-with-display-box.cfm?gun_id=101508282


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2020 at 11:06pm
Another fun day at the range yesterday, putting 100 rounds through my Javelina. 50 were weak Remington 180gr FMJ factory ammo (loaded to 40 S&W velocities) and the others were my own handloads, 10.0gr Blue Dot with a 180gr hard cast lead FP.

The trigger is still awful, the action still feels gritty, and yet it’s remarkably accurate and easy to shoot well. I can only imagine how much better it will be once I get the trigger sorted out. 

I did have three identical malfunctions. Failure to eject, with the partially ejected case getting jammed into the barrel hood (and wrecked) while the next round in the magazine is attempting to feed:



So I’m not quite ready to trust it with my life, but I’m having a lot of fun with it! 


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2020 at 1:32am
I would increase the load with that type of stoppage.


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2020 at 4:09am
Yes, I think it was the weak sister factory ammo that caused the problem. However, by coincidence I think the failure always occurred with the second to the last round in the magazine.  Maybe not a coincidence? Also could have been limp-wristing although I don’t think so. I had the same failures with the same ammo last time I shot it too. 

My handloads are to original pressures, not the 10mm lite that seems to be all the rage these days. So I anticipate I should get more reliable performance with those.  FWIW I had no problems with the factory ammo in my Colt Delta Elite on the same day. 

I need to break the Javelina in a bit more. It sure is fun to shoot though. I am planning an extensive session at the reloading bench in the near future followed by yet more 10mm shooting! Thumbs Up


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2020 at 1:05pm
As you get to the last rounds in the magazine, the spring pressure pushing up gets less.  The top round in the magazine actually helps eject the spent casings when you are firing.  As the pressure gets less, it gives less help.

I have shot a lot of 'lower power' loads in 10mm and a little more powder will usually solve any ejection problems.


Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2020 at 1:14pm
I would also reccomend testing with quality factory ammunition. That long slide is heavier as a regular one and need some more speed to cycle well.
It looks as your empty case is not getting fast enough out of the way.
Try some fiocchi or Norma if you can find some.

https://fiocchiusa.com/shop/ammo/handguns/10-auto.html" rel="nofollow - https://fiocchiusa.com/shop/ammo/handguns/10-auto.html



Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 19 Oct 2020 at 3:28pm
Luc,

Sadly, this is the USA. Factory ammo is simply not available anymore—all the stores around here have been completely sold out for months. And Fiocci and Norma ammo imported from Europe was rare and exotic (and expensive) even before it all became unavailable. Most US 10mm ammo has been loaded down to 40 S&W velocities, which is dumb.

Fortunately I reload my own, and stocked up on primers last year (it’s impossible to buy primers here anymore too). I can dump enough powder into the case to blow the slide clean off the gun if I want to. LOL

I won’t do that of course, but I will load some genuine full-power ammo and give that a try next time. 


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2021 at 10:59pm
Another fun day at the range with the Javelina (and my 6.5-inch 357 Auto Mag). As before, I had several jams with the second to last round, always exactly the same:




I was using two different loads—10.0 gr and 10.4 gr of Blue Dot with a 175 gr lead flat point. 

Maybe I need to turn up the steam a bit. I have since run out of Blue Dot and switched to AA #7. I will try some of those next time to see if the problem continues. 

I fired 150 rounds and only had this happen three times. 

As an aside, I continue to be astounded at how accurate this gun is, especially considering the very marginal trigger pull. It is a very GI-feeling trigger, with tons of creep, and yet I can still shoot groups featuring clover leafs (and a few fliers which open them up a bit) at 15 yards. This is an exceptionally accurate gun, and very easy to shoot as well. At some point I am going to have a trigger job done and then it will really be terrific. 


Posted By: AndyC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 1:32am
Originally posted by Pantera Mike Pantera Mike wrote:

As before, I had several jams with the second to last round, always exactly the same

I'm going to take a stab, based on extensive 1911 experience - here's my theory, in 2 parts:

1. The extractor isn't tensioned enough and the case-rim of the second-last round is slipping off. It doesn't occur on the previous extracting rounds as they're still being supported by the rounds still in the mag (disguising the extractor issue).

2. The mag-spring is a little weak - so while the spring is compressed more by additional ammo - sufficient enough to give an upward push and give sufficient upward support to the case that's fired/being extracted ( keeps it from falling off the extractor), once it gets to only 1 round left in the mag, the spring-pressure isn't strong enough to raise the last round up consistently or quickly enough to support the fired case.

That's my theory for now.



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http://bane.2hell.com" rel="nofollow - My Iraq Pics


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 6:00am
Hmm, sounds plausible. 

The problem is confined to this gun however. When I use the same magazines in my Colt Delta Elite, they function perfectly. 

Hmmmm....

I still think the problem might be caused by too-weak ammo, or by all the friction in the slide action (which is atrocious compared to my Delta Elite).

I will keep experimenting.....


Posted By: AndyC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 2:36pm
A little weak for whatever that pistol needs - might function fine in others.

If the ammo were too weak, I doubt that it would regularly occur only on the 2nd-to-last shot, but it's worth trying out various things eg. take the slide off and put a case under the extractor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_ybp51lx6w" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/UOSmJd7HaDY?t=50

Polishing the slide rails can be done - I used to use toothpaste (but it takes a while) and just run the bare slide to and fro on the frame.


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http://bane.2hell.com" rel="nofollow - My Iraq Pics


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 3:00pm
Thanks Andy! I will give that a try tonight!


Posted By: AndyC
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2021 at 6:11pm
Maybe they help, maybe not - hopefully there's a kernel of something relevant in there that turns out useful :)


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http://bane.2hell.com" rel="nofollow - My Iraq Pics



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