44 AMP Ramshot load.
Printed From: AMT Guns information
Category: Auto Mag Pistol
Forum Name: Pet loads
Forum Description: Shooters loads and results.
URL: http://www.amtguns.info/forum_posts.asp?TID=1435
Printed Date: 27 Mar 2026 at 1:10am
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Topic: 44 AMP Ramshot load.
Posted By: Luc V.
Subject: 44 AMP Ramshot load.
Date Posted: 26 Mar 2013 at 8:40pm
A question for Lee or other experts please, what is the maximum pressure for the 44 AMP cartridge?It's just I noticed the CIP data for this cartridge is set to 36985 psi, and I have always used 40611 psi as maximum. I forgot where or whom told me to use the 40611 psi as max... I know that SAAMI is different, but can't find any data on this.   I'm tying to "fix" a new load with Ramshot TrueBlue powder (which is in fact Belgian PCL504) This is the first testload I'm going to use.  |
Replies:
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 29 Mar 2013 at 5:06pm
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I tried the sample cartridges today.The starting load I choose worked fine. Gun reloads OK and bolt stays open on last shot. So far so good.Data for the 44 AMP cartridge.Case: StarlinePrimer: Federal Large PistolPowder: Ramshot True Blue 14.5 GrainsBullet: Fiocchi 240 Grains SJSP.Velocity : 1333 Fps. (as per computed data)I will shoot some over the chrony later. Pretty clean burning powder. This load should be more than adequate to kill some paper targets...    |
Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 1:09am
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Luc, This looks like a very fast burning powder for 44 Auto Mag, also I cannot tell for sure from your pictures, but your primers look like they may be showing signs of flattening, are you getting any case buldging?
If you are looking for a Euro-powder have you ever tried Norma R123? I tried in long ago, but it is very expensive here and came in small cans so gave up on it. I was told it was the powder Norma used in their original Auto Mag loaded ammo.
GH ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 8:18am
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Thanks for your comments George. Norma powder is available here, but not cheap... I Like to try something different. I know most of you use the W296 or H110 powder for the 44AMP, but I find this powder is actually to slow for this barrel length. In a Carbine length it should be much more effective.Check the data below, I 'theoretical' filled a case full of w296, and the % burned when the bullet leaves the muzzle is only 79.8%. Meaning you just burn the rest of the powder in the air in front of the barrel.I agree, it's fun to see the big balls of fire, but that is just "a waste' of powder.My testload with True Blue burns 100% of the powder, with only a case filling of 57.9% and I already get 1333 fps at a 'midway pressure'.  |
Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 1:13pm
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Luc,
Just looked up True Blue and it is listed as a much faster powder than WW296/H110, and while I agree that WW296 might be a bit slow for the 6 1/2" Auto Mag Bbl, True Blue is listed as even faster than Blue Dot.
 Clearly the powder burning speed tables are not all there is to the science of gunpowder and how well it works in any particular caliber, so there may well be other factors of concern and how much velocity you are trying to get out of your combination is a consideration.In the past I have tried Blue Dot and did not like it, but I was loading at a maximum level, and had clear signs of too much pressure. If you are loading a more modest round, this faster powder may be working for you, by generating a more sharp pressure curve.
Interesting point about the "hardness" of primers, I use CCI 350 primers in Auto Mag loads for almost every powder I have tried and they dont flatten until you are at very high pressures and case buldging is not too far behind. So I get no early signs of pressure problems that you might get with a softer primer.
If you are looking for a faster powder, I have had good luck in the past with Accurate #9, it was a good clean powder that worked well in a lower velocity loads. I was impressed with it as a viable option to WW 296 for shorter Bbl lower velocity "paper shooting" loads.
Good Luck and please keep us posted on you efforts, it makes for very interesting reading and much better than the head-butting posts we sometimes suffer through,,,
 GH ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 3:35pm
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Luc said
Check the data below, I 'theoretical' filled a case full of w296, and the % burned when the bullet leaves the muzzle is only 79.8%. Meaning you just burn the rest of the powder in the air in front of the barrel.
I agree, it's fun to see the big balls of fire,
 but that is just "a waste' of powder.
My testload with True Blue burns 100% of the powder, with only a case filling of 57.9% and I already get 1333 fps at a 'midway pressure'
Luc, I know that you are trying to get an efficient target load, but the 20% of the 296 that burns outside of the barrel is really not wasted if one is trying to achieve a maximum velocity hunting load. It is simply needed to keep the barrel pressure up to reach that maximum velocity. |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 3:53pm
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Beemer1, that is just what I'm trying to say. To achieve that wanted velocity you do not that much powder. You get the same speed with other (faster) powders which burns all of it. I didn't mean it as realy "wasted" in the above post, but more as way to "not optimal". George, I 'm not trying to compare w296 and Trueblue, I know they are to different in burning speed. My previous load for the 44AMP was with 3N37, and the pressure/speed was close to the one I made so far with True Blue. More to follow later...
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Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 4:05pm
I guess I am not following you. Your Ramshot load theoretically reaches 1333 fps at max pressure of 36,466 psi while the 296 load reaches 1528 fps at a max pressure of 38,727 psi.
Can you get 200 fps more out of the Ramshot with 2,000 more psi? Maybe, I do not know.
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Luc V. wrote:Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 4:47pm
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Beemer1, OK, my goal is trying to use a powder which burns 100% of the loading just before the bullet leaves the barrel and get a velocity around 1300 fps. Why, because my previous load (3N37) did nearly the same. Powder is a funny thing, let's look at the data below for the theoretically load with Win 296. If I lower the load, to match the 1333 fps, I will get an even lower burning %... Nearly 30% is just "blown out of the barrel" without generating pressure behind the bullet. That's why I called it " a waste" and rather use a faster powder. I hope this make sense. Oh, btw this is not just a wild guess for the TrueBlue data, I have old (=PCL504) loading sheets for the 44 magnum with similar data, so I tried this data in the 44AMP.  |
Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 5:10pm
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Luc - I understand that you are wanting a target load and I do the same thing by using Unique in my 44 Reminton Mag revolvers. All I was saying is if a person wants the maximum he can get out of the 44 AMP or the 44 Rem Mag for a hunting load I have found that the 296 or H110 does that with a lot of powder burning outside of the barrel. If accuracy is good and velocity is at max, the powder is not wasted. |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2013 at 7:58pm
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Just an update, Tested 30 rounds today, function in the AM is just fine. Point of impact is pretty much the same as the 'old load'. That powder burns very clean, leaving no unburned particles or residue in the barrel. Case extraction is good,and the cases are fairly clean. Just one change to the above load, the charge this time was 14 grains, just because the powder unit on the Hornady L-N-L was still set for this.Just to be clear, the pictures off the two fired bullets earlier where with the 14.5 grains load. Btw, this very fine powder works very well and accurate in the L-N-L "dispenser". I think I'm going to stick to this powder/loading for the next batch of loads.       |
Posted By: usrguns
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 2:30am
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Luc, Did you crony them?? ------------- If you can't have fun doing it, then don't do it. |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2013 at 4:50pm
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Larry, That was what I had in mind, but the range was to much occupied to set up the Chrony so I just shot the 30 rounds as a function and groupsize test. I will do some real Chrony tests before loading up. to see how constant the velocity is. |
Posted By: usrguns
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2013 at 1:32am
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What did the grouping look like?? ------------- If you can't have fun doing it, then don't do it. |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 09 Apr 2013 at 5:40pm
| Larry, the group was very good, no flyers. I'll save some sample targets next time. |
Posted By: usrguns
Date Posted: 10 Apr 2013 at 11:23pm
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Thanks Luc, Have my Ammo guy loading up some for me to try for him. Will try and crony them in the 6 1/2 & the 8 1/2. Will let you all know the results when done!! ------------- If you can't have fun doing it, then don't do it. |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2013 at 6:32pm
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OK thanks Larry. So if you do the velocity test,I will do some accuracy test then. Just made some more ammo,  and will test them in the Ransom Rest on Sunday.    I tried the clamps and wonder if this is a good idea to use like this. I see to many "naked parts" when the clamps are closed.  I guess I have to cover them up with some tape to keep everything in place:  Hope this works, more later... |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2013 at 6:35pm
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OK, here's an update about the test shot from the Ransom rest. Pistol in the machine: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/debroers/media/DSC03560_zps513fd82b.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  The setup in the range, target is at 25 meter: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/debroers/media/DSC03553_zpsf17befa0.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Maximum muzzle rise: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/debroers/media/DSC03556_zpsd7fd5f18.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  And now the more dissapointed news. The poor results about groups, are probably not the fault of the ammunition, since I did not have any flyers when I shot them "freehand" style before... The targets: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/debroers/media/DSC03567_zps2c82418a.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Reason for the inconsistent results is that when the A.M pistol is locked in the ransom rest, the grip (frame) is rocksolid and can't move. However, the upperreceiver and barrel have to much "play" on the frame to give reliable results from the rest. See pictures for play between frame/barrel. No gap between frame and receiver: http://smg.photobucket.com/user/debroers/media/DSC03566_zps25fc3438.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Gap about 1mm between frame and receiver. http://smg.photobucket.com/user/debroers/media/DSC03565_zps036c62d8.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  So if the back of the receiver can move 1mm up and down/left-right, at 25 meters the impacts will not be consistent. http://smg.photobucket.com/user/debroers/media/DSC03563_zps7897586d.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  http://smg.photobucket.com/user/debroers/media/DSC03564_zpsfb9f7ad2.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">  Conclusion: The tests and results shot from the ransom rest are useless, since the upper can move to much in different directions... The frame inside the ransom rest is always in the same position, but the point of aim and impact can be shifted around. When I do a test with the ransom rest, I shoot five rounds fed from the magazine, and I move the rest back into position without touching the pistol, only touching the machine. Maybe I should have pushed down on the barrel also after each shot, so it would be in the same position each time. Oh well, today I learned something to remember for future tests. Next time I will shoot the pistol with the frame (just in front of triggerguard) resting on a sandbag. See if this give a more consistent result. |
Posted By: Old44
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2013 at 2:49am
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This is an interesting thread for a new Automag owner like me. Been handloading for some time but this gun is a new beastie. The most info I've found is on this forum. For 357, 41 and 44, it seems like H110 might be a good starting powder (since I have some on hand along with 2400) and powder is a bit difficult to get right now. So what bullet weights does the gun like? .357 125gr or 158gr .41 170gr or 210gr .44 200gr or 240gr basically on the light or heavy side? |
Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2013 at 3:25pm
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Don't bother wasting one round loading with 2400, its not a good powder for Auto Mags, stick with the H110 or WW 296, they are proven performers. The Ramshot may be an option but you will have to experiment with it. H110 and WW 296 is a 100% safe bet to start with. Good Luck - gh------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2013 at 7:03pm
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To Old44, heavier bullet weights will work easier in the recoil operated Auto Mag. George, reloading for 44 Auto Mag's is always experimenting... |
Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 08 Jun 2013 at 7:58pm
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Hi Luc,
Yes I totally agree, but some things are best delayed until a certain level of experience has been developed.
So while I tip my hat to you for trying something new, I still believe for the first time Auto Mag shooter, sticking with a proven formula is a better option.
Then once a level of comfort and experience with the gun has been built, by all means try something new and keep us posted.
 GH ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: Old44
Date Posted: 09 Jun 2013 at 11:20pm
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This is the exact starting information I needed. Have some of the heavy bullets for the 357 and 44, still looking for 210gr for the 41. There is so little information out there for this cartridge, this is the best place. Just have to start with a fire-forming load and work up. Luc, I inspected my gun and had the same gap when pushing down on the barrel. However there is virtually no lateral movement, but I noticed a horizontal displacement equal to the vertical in your test targets. Does your gun have some play in that direction? Also noticed along with George the primer flattening. I have lived with minor flattening in my Magnum revolvers, is this also normal with the Automag?. That's some impressive sofrware you are using. May look into it down the road. George, I too found signs of high pressure with BlueDot in the standard 357, flattened primers, some cratering and seeing the imprint of the backstrap on the primer. This was just working up to max, hadn't even hit it yet.....quit using BlueDot. |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 10 Jun 2013 at 5:21pm
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Yes, the barrel on my pistol can move up/down and left/right. I guess all automag's barrels will have movement in this area. It's the (sloppy) way they are made... However, this is not important when you hold the pistol in your hands to aim and shoot, since the front and rearsight are both mounted on the barrel, they will Always shoot where you aim at. Only the relation barrel to frame can move and that's why you see the up/down AND left/ right impact differences. I should have returned the ransom rest to the start position by grasping the frontsight instead of just touching the rest. Might have shown a better result. Concerning the primer flattening, the ones in my pistol all look the same. They might look as they are lightly smashed, but that is absolutely nothing much. Also that load is not hot at all, just a good practice round. I quit using Bluedot some years ago after I saw some very weird things happening to many of the calibers I used it for. |
Posted By: Old44
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 12:32am
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I plan on using Winchester LP primers rated for standard or magnum loads behind H-110. I noticed others here use this primer....any comments? |
Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 12 Jun 2013 at 2:29am
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I prefer CCI 350's for Auto Mag full power loads with WW296. Winchester are fine if you are using lower power loads and very good for powders like Accurate #9 when loading for the AM.
GH ------------- Who was that masked man,,, |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2015 at 4:55pm
Hey Larry, I thought an update on this might be in place. I just shot the last of that reloaded batch today, and I stay with this load. Since powder has become an issue to find, this Ramshot is easy to get here (it's Belgian powder anyway) and I'm happy with the results. Below a picture of one of my targets I usually shoot with this load. 50 rounds shot in standing position, two hand held pistol, not resting on anything, and target at 25 meters.  Just to show the pistol is not covering any other holes:  Well, that's good enough for me to use in the future. |
Posted By: Luvz2Shoot
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2015 at 5:13pm
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25 meters...... VERY NICE SHOOTING !!!!
I wish I could do this good with 50 rounds out of my scoped 7mm. hahahaha Again, VERY nice shooting! ------------- If you were happy and you knew it, would you clap your hands? |
Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 26 Jul 2015 at 8:03pm
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Thanks. Well I loaded about a thousand of those and today I shot the last of them, so I think I know where they land by now ;-) Guess it's all about practice. 25 meters is the usual distance overhere to shoot handguns, so we practice this all the time. It just sounds more impressive if we say we shoot handguns at a nearly a 1000 inches...
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