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Auto Mag pistols (10) at Oak Tree Gun Club
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golden24 View Drop Down
Callahan's Auto Mag
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Joined: 15 Feb 2019
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Points: 505 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote golden24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2020 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by Benny123 Benny123 wrote:

That’s a bottomless trove of auto mags. Friggin sad that only a few rounds would go off without problems with all those variants displayed 

Hoping to see the 357AMPs. I always wanted one as ballistically it’s a hybrid , IMO . It was hard to follow the issue at the end. The first thing I thought of was a major headspace issue that had to be from with one of the 357s. 

But I just read you had ignition out of battery ?! Thank goodness everyone is OK. I always thought that was folklore . It could happen but was never reported .

Golden24, where’s your new 357–the one with the ivory grips?



I won't be using the new 357 unit till I dial in the new 44 Auto Mag Classic Edition barrel & it's bolt.
I need to concentrate one one unit at a time.....for me anyway...
Once I'm happy with that I'll play with the new TDE 357....... 
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Dances with AutoMags View Drop Down
Callahan's Auto Mag
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Joined: 13 Oct 2011
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Points: 613 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dances with AutoMags Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 12:10am

Well, we went shooting yesterday at the Oak Tree gun club in Newhall, CA.

There were five of us with several Auto Mags.  I was experimenting with the .45ACP Mag as others were trying out their Auto Mags.  The shooter on my left made a bad sounding BOOM and the crowd let out a gasp.  It turned out that the Auto Mag he was firing had fired out of battery.  He was just chambering his first round out of the magazine when it went off.  He was holding the gun downward while he was chambering the gun.  

Upon examining the gun, I found that both of his hand-cast North Hollywood grips were  broken into several pieces.  The bolt rotation-pin was broken in half and the barrel latch was missing the leaver part of the latch, but was still latching the barrel on the frame.  I turned the shaft of the barrel-latch to un-latch it and I removed the barrel.  I used a set of needle nose pliers.  

Farther examination revealed that the bolt-ring on the top of the frame was bent rearward.  No cracks and not too severe a bend.  The bolt and cocking piece were ok.  

This appears to be the out-of-battery problem that Tim Bell has been warning us about.  (Tim Bell is the project engineer at Auto Mag LTD).  The firing-pin is too heavy and it can move forward when the bolt stops while chambering a round.  Tim has determined that a 55gr. Titanium firing-pi n will not move forward while chambering and eliminates this problem.  

It would seem to be wise to install the new Titanium firing-pin in any Auto Mag that you want to shoot.  Tim says that Auto Mag LTD has made them but you will have to contact them to determine there availability and price.   

   The barrel latch was not the problem this time.  It was a victim.

Get a 55 gr. Titanium firing-pin if you want to shoot an Auto Mag.  

Bruce Stark

Note:  I shot 20 rounds of Cor-Bon out of my North Hollywood gun without a hitch.  All cycled and the hold-open worked.  Hot ammo but consistent and maybe just hot enough.....Cheers

 

Note # 2 

           Tim Bell says;

 

"My suggestion to you guy’s shooting the older pistols would be to replace your steel firing pin with the titanium firing pin along with the firing pin spring and new inner and outer hammer springs.  Our new firing pin springs are easy to identify as they are closed end and flat ground in case you get them mixed up. "

 

 

 
An armed society is a polite society.
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Pantera Mike View Drop Down
Callahan's Auto Mag
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Joined: 20 Jan 2018
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Points: 1007 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pantera Mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 6:39am
Note to self: buy and install new light firing pins and springs before shooting AMs again! 

I’m sorry another gun was damaged, but glad nobody got hurt. I’ve always been under the impression that the firing-out-of-battery thing was ‘caused’ somehow by the shooter—defective reloads or something like that. But this story has changed my mind. It sounds like a genuine design flaw, easily overcome thankfully. 
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Pantera Mike View Drop Down
Callahan's Auto Mag
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Points: 1007 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pantera Mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 9:16am
Further to the above, I just remembered that when I first heard about this issue I created dummy rounds into which I seated primers, then fed them from the magazine, looking for traces of firing pin impact, and saw nothing. Could this problem simply be attributed to weak firing pin springs, and thus fixed by fitting new springs? I have new Wolff springs in both guns already.

Hmmmm...new firing pins are probably cheap insurance, even if not strictly necessary.....
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golden24 View Drop Down
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Points: 505 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote golden24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 10:12am
Originally posted by Pantera Mike Pantera Mike wrote:

Further to the above, I just remembered that when I first heard about this issue I created dummy rounds into which I seated primers, then fed them from the magazine, looking for traces of firing pin impact, and saw nothing. Could this problem simply be attributed to weak firing pin springs, and thus fixed by fitting new springs? I have new Wolff springs in both guns already.

Hmmmm...new firing pins are probably cheap insurance, even if not strictly necessary.....

The new Titanium firing pins also come with a new spring, not sure what type of spring that is........
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Pantera Mike View Drop Down
Callahan's Auto Mag
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Points: 1007 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pantera Mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by golden24 golden24 wrote:


The new Titanium firing pins also come with a new spring, not sure what type of spring that is........


The relevant page on the Auto Mag store website says:  “ The Titanium Firing Pin and Spring Set includes the new Titanium Firing Pin and a Wolf Firing pin Spring”
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golden24 View Drop Down
Callahan's Auto Mag
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Points: 505 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote golden24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 12:51pm
Originally posted by Pantera Mike Pantera Mike wrote:

Originally posted by golden24 golden24 wrote:


The new Titanium firing pins also come with a new spring, not sure what type of spring that is........


The relevant page on the Auto Mag store website says:  “ The Titanium Firing Pin and Spring Set includes the new Titanium Firing Pin and a Wolf Firing pin Spring”

Very cool   
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Callahan's Auto Mag
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Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Points: 2091 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Auto Mag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 2:48pm
Good to see several Auto Mag shooters together at once, that in and of itself is such a rare happening that you almost never hear of it.

And though its always disheartening to hear of an Auto Mag breaking, its good to see discussion(s) around matter and hopefully meaningful discussion(s) not just old wives-tales and unfounded rumors.

So to that end I hope you folks will keep this one going a while.

The question of lighter or heavier firing pins is a good one, but I see it as more of an engineering question about ultimate performance.

There is a balance between hammer weight, firing pin weight, and firing pin spring tension. And thats just the start, you also have to consider force of the moving bolt and barrel assembly and recoil spring tension, and maybe other factors. The goal is to have enough energy to properly impact the primer, any primer that you may be using, but without the risk of slam fire. And given that people are using different primers, different barrels, maybe different bolts (open vs solid) and different firing pin springs and recoil springs this creates a very difficult challenge to balanced this all out.

We know the original Auto Mag started with a lighter firing pin, and weight was added. Now we have access to a new firing pin that is not the same as either of the 2 original firing pins.  What we dont know is if any of these pins had specific firing pin spring tensions associated with them and what that would be, and what was the intended usage. We also know that Wolfe Spring and the New Auto Mag company offers a replacement spring, but again, no specifications and no documentation about intended usage (for use with what firing pin and primer)

Has anyone done an exhaustive and documented study of these combinations and can provide data as to the effectiveness of the various combinations to ensure effective and proper primer ignition for all common and popular primers,  but without risk of slam fire? It would be interesting to see such data.

And regarding safety, which should also be a first priority, I have serious doubts about the concerns raised about an imminent slam fire failure for anyone using an original firing pin. If that were the case, most of the Auto Mags would have been blown up by now.

Is there a risk of slam fire due to the factory firing pin being too heavy, maybe, but it would seem VERY rare.

More likely I would presume that greater risk is a 50 year old firing pin spring that may have lost some of its tension.  So should Auto Mag owners be concerned about a high risk of slam fire due to their old firing pin spring, maybe, and in truth its a super inexpensive update so this would make sense to me.

But to the heart of the matter for when a legitimate slam fire occurs, I would first suspect 3 things before jumping on the parts replacement bandwagon.

First, was the firing pin cleaned of any gummed up original oil and dirt and properly oiled? This has been one of my most common observations in Auto Mags that have been sitting for a while or that have never been properly and thoroughly cleaned. The Auto Mag firing pin is very susceptible to dirt and gummed up lube impacting its proper operation. 

Second, was the firing pin straight and tested for operation without any drag or failure to return to its proper position.  Over the years I have seen several bent firing pins. Some I suspect due to a failure to be properly cleaned and oiled, and some maybe due to weak firing pin springs and some to unknown causes such as someone using rifle primer or other reasons.

And Third, was there any chance of a previous primer failure in the gun in question?  If a primer had failed and melted into the firing pin hole it could cause the firing pin to hang up. This is a common event for those shooting heavy loads and presents a very real risk to the gun and shooter. Always keep an eye on your fired brass, it tells you a lot about whats going on and melted primers are a reason to not only stop using that ammo, but to also stop and disassemble the gun and inspect the firing pin and the bolt to ensure no metal from the primer has embedded on the firing pin or in the hole through the bolt causing a drag or hang up of the firing pin.

If these 3 items are ensured to not be a problem in your Auto Mag, then my next concern would be the tension of a 50 year old firing pin spring. And the last item of concern to me is the weight of the firing pin itself.

Not saying in any way what the ultimate weight of the firing pin should be, at this point in time I have seen nothing that clearly defines that to me. And as with other guns, there may not be one single best weight, you may want different weights based on a number of factors and each weight firing pin may or may not require its own firing pin spring of a specific tension.

Shooter beware, buyer beware, Auto Mags are not for novices and not without risk and not without its fair share of bad or incomplete guidance.  Its is still an experimental and hand-built gun with many quirks.

ATB

GH
Who was that masked man,,,
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BEEMER1 View Drop Down
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Points: 1366 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEEMER1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 2:57pm
First, Kudos to Tim Bell for researching this and testing to find an alternative solution that solves the problem and does not affect performance.

I also have to question just how often this has really occurred.  This problem has been kicked around for many years with all forms of gun design, and yes, back before the original Auto Mags went into production.  This is actually the first time I have ever heard of it happening with an Auto Mag.  If this was a common occurrence I would have thought it would have been addressed long before now.

Just a couple of weeks ago a guy on the Rohrbaugh Forum had an accidental discharge in his home.  The Rohrbaugh R9 is a high quality very small 9mm small enough for pocket carry.  The guy removed the pistol from his pocket and set it on a shelf when changing clothes.  It accidentally got bumped off and landed on the muzzle and discharged into the floor.  Sh*t happens.

Added later:

  George and I were posting at the same time.  He brings up good points.
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Callahan's Auto Mag
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Joined: 08 Mar 2008
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Points: 2091 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Auto Mag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2020 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by BEEMER1 BEEMER1 wrote:

First, Kudos to Tim Bell for researching this and testing to find an alternative solution that solves the problem and does not affect performance.

I also have to question just how often this has really occurred.  This problem has been kicked around for many years with all forms of gun design, and yes, back before the original Auto Mags went into production.  This is actually the first time I have ever heard of it happening with an Auto Mag.  If this was a common occurrence I would have thought it would have been addressed long before now.

Just a couple of weeks ago a guy on the Rohrbaugh Forum had an accidental discharge in his home.  The Rohrbaugh R9 is a high quality very small 9mm small enough for pocket carry.  The guy removed the pistol from his pocket and set it on a shelf when changing clothes.  It accidentally got bumped off and landed on the muzzle and discharged into the floor.  Sh*t happens.

Added later:

  George and I were posting at the same time.  He brings up good points.


Kudos to anyone of you who takes the time to look at anything to do with Auto Mags and does a through job documenting your efforts and sharing the data generated. And if it produces an outcome, such as an optional firing pin weight, I think we all welcome more Auto Mag accessories to the market. In the past we enjoyed many accessories from Kent Lomont, Lee Jurras, Brian Maynard, Jim Herringshaw, Bruce Stark and others. Lets hope the future will see a resurrection of Auto Mag items like the 1911 has seen.

As for the gun you reference as having fallen off the shelf and discharging, well not many have complex firing pin safeties to prevent this from happening, and even those that do, you find owners often looking to ways to bypass it such as the Colt Series 80 conversions kits.  Few guns do everything perfectly, let alone getting knocked off a shelf with a round in the chamber and not go off, but still be 100% reliable and have a good trigger and smooth operation ;-)

GH
Who was that masked man,,,
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