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The New Automag

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Luc V. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luc V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2018 at 7:00pm
Interesting video, just pay attention to the take down lever...
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AndyC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2018 at 8:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bellarmament Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2018 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by Luc V. Luc V. wrote:

Interesting video, just pay attention to the take down lever...


Good job AndyC!! Thanks

Had quite a few PM's asking why the Auto Mag X design was shelved. Here was my summation.

Indeed an interesting video with several things going on that I will point out. The block of wood was to keep the muzzle down in the camera frame and has no effect on rearward movement of the upper. It just arrests the muzzle climb.

This was early testing of the "X" design. The bolt did not have a flat spot before helix opening so no dwell time. This is how it was designed. This video was taken to prove what I was saying was true and the clocking barrel latch (take down lever) was an unexpected bonus.

When I mentioned the lack of any dwell time I was rather sarcastically told that the dwell was built into the bolt retractor  attached to the bolt with a split pin and screwed onto the cocking piece. That is all well and good if you are manually cocking the pistol but not so when firing the pistol.

Watch the bolt in the video as it begins it's rotational movement as soon as it is fired.

When you fire the pistol the upper moves with the fired casing and pushes the the bolt rearward and the bolt immediately begins rotating due to it's interaction with the rotation pins. If you look at the video you will see the bolt is rotating the moment the pistol is fired. Quite a profound oversight in my opinion. Bolt rotation under pressure.

Below is a photo of the "X" bolt with no dwell before helix opening.



I painted it up with a blue marker so you can see there is no flat spot before helix opening.

The upper and barrel were made from pre-heat treated 4140 chrome moly steel ( because someone did not like stainless steel). A comment was made that the upper was not heat treated which is simply not true. I fired this pistol over 300 times (after adding the dwell time before helix opening) with only .001 lug setback with 1350 to 1450fps rounds being fired. Annealed 4140 would have never held up.

Anyone in the firearms manufacturing business knows working with pre heat treated steel is harder on your tooling but negates the chance of loosing parts dimensionally during post production heat treating and the added benefit of no dealing with scale or oxidation which can happen even in an inert atmosphere furnace.

At any rate the pistol would only attempt to load a second round if rounds fired were in the 1450fps + range and then only with specially ordered light recoil springs that did not have enough return pressure to push a round out of the magazine.

You will notice the bouncing cocking piece caused by the double helix and the torsioning of the recoil rods. The rods would loosen as it was designed not to use helicoils because someone did not like helicoils. After less than 15 firings thread fatigue in the cocking piece where the recoil rods were threaded in was evident. I could remove the cocking piece and tap the threaded openings on a paper towel and there would be metal powder. My suggestion was to go back with the helicoils or permanently attach the rods to the cocking piece and use locking bushings in the front of the recoil rods.

There were several more issues such as a 6:00 o'clock bolt lug and a slot in the bottom of the feed ramp in the upper. I believe this was attempted before by the same designer and Lovendale had to re-design it years ago.

Basically the 6:00 bolt lug would dig a notch in every piece of brass as the bolt moved over the next round round to be loaded and the slot in the feed ramp would put two carved lines in the brass. Basically your ejected brass looked like it had been beat with an ax.

Another issue was the bolt/firing pin retractor that was  a threaded tube that screwed into the cocking piece holding the double cam helix behind the bolt. This is where the dwell time was supposed to be, in the slotted retractor.
Well it suffered thread fatigue and thread degradation and the slot in the retractor caused the most important part to be so thin that the metal began stretching after less than 100 rounds fired.

The "X" design was akin to a solid bolt gun and recoil forces were horrible on the wrist with even 1350fps rounds. As I have mentioned before the more weight launched rearward the more weight has to be arrested ( by your hands, wrist and arms). The recoil was horrid with this design.

There is still a schematic of the "X" design on www.automag.com if anyone is interested in seeing the retractor in the drawing.

At any rate there was supposed to be a fully functioning prototype and it was supposedly sold to a guy who writes Auto Mag books ( not Bruce ). I asked for the working prototype or a video of it working but was personally told by the owner he stuck it in a safe and had never fired it.

You guys would have probably had your Founders and Classic pistols about a year earlier if it hadn't been for the time and money wasted on the "X" design.

In closing the math did not support the weights and physics of operation and interaction of the moving parts as a working semi auto firearm within the boundaries of safe and reliable function.

I will cover the clocking barrel latch ( take down lever) in my next post and the cause was not what I expected but was easily cured.

Sorry I keep referring to the take down lever as the barrel latch. I am used to M60, M249 and M240's being referred to as a barrel latch. Old habits hard to break.

I apologize for another long winded post but hope I answered the question of why the "X" design was shelved. I would have liked to see where we could have gotten with "X" but was met with anger and resentment by the designer so I recommended going with the more original Classic design and making immediate needed improvements and gradually adding percieved improvements and measuring the benefits over time.

The Auto Mag is back and here to stay!

Knock um out Patrick and Larry!


Kind regards
Tim






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AndyC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Feb 2018 at 11:57pm
Originally posted by Bellarmament Bellarmament wrote:

Good job AndyC!! Thanks

No problem at all - glad to have done something useful :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEEMER1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 12:46am
Quote-

"At any rate there was supposed to be a fully functioning prototype and it was supposedly sold to a guy who writes Auto Mag books ( not Bruce ). I asked for the working prototype or a video of it working but was personally told by the owner he stuck it in a safe and had never fired it. "

The guy who supposedly has the working prototype paid for Max's living expenses and development costs for a long period of time during the developing stages.

I also heard from a very reliable source that Max's idea of a working prototype and many other people's is not the same.  It would fire but never reliably reload for any sustained period and the brass always came out mangled.  Max was always just one minor change away from the real deal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bellarmament Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 1:31am
Originally posted by BEEMER1 BEEMER1 wrote:

Quote-

"At any rate there was supposed to be a fully functioning prototype and it was supposedly sold to a guy who writes Auto Mag books ( not Bruce ). I asked for the working prototype or a video of it working but was personally told by the owner he stuck it in a safe and had never fired it. "

The guy who supposedly has the working prototype paid for Max's living expenses and development costs for a long period of time during the developing stages.

I also heard from a very reliable source that Max's idea of a working prototype and many other people's is not the same.  It would fire but never reliably reload for any sustained period and the brass always came out mangled.  Max was always just one minor change away from the real deal.


Thanks BEEMER1,

That explains quite a lot.  I see now how they were such good friends and how he most probably was trying to recoup an investment not caring who they maligned with skewed info and lies.

Guess they bet on all the wrong horses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote desertmoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 5:42am




Meanwhile....somewhere in Arizona.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scar2783 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by desertmoon desertmoon wrote:





Meanwhile....somewhere in Arizona.



Love it!!!

Mark S. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pasadena-Joe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 3:36pm
Site been much more interesting recently.  Really like reading the tech stuff from Tim Bell, cant say I get everything he says, but it makes for interesting reading.

Was just looking at the really pretty polished gun on the new automag web site, gotta say from a distance I'll bet its an eye turner, probly sparkles like a brand new car in the sunlight. 

I just cant get over the barrel profile and that rib, it just seems like sin to me to have such a pretty design gun with that ugly rib and barrel profile.  So wondering if its possible to remove (unthread) it from the receiver or extension or whatever they call it and then have it cut off and retaper the barrel.  Then put the barrel back and have a regular automag rib installed?

Probably cost too much, but then it would be right, well at least for me or anyone like minded.

Not sure what they are bothered by about welding the barrel into the receiver and the rib on top, seems like it worked pretty good for the original gun.  Never seen one fail myself nor ever persoanlly heard anyone here complain about such.  It might have happened, but it couldnt be a big problem as no on post I ever read here talked about it actually happening to anyone here. Cant hardly believe machining a barrel out of a whole block of metal could cost less, so I just dont get it, why do it. was it a Max G idea that they just got stuck with?  Wonder if they will change it when they actually get to production, assuming they actually make it that far.  Well maybe it will help keep the prices up on the original guns. 

Reminds me of when Colt made the New Frontier.  Never really caught on big, too expensive and too ugly. Folks wanted the clean look of the original SAA.  

Maybe its just a old guy thing.  When we get a good thing we know it and dont ever want it to change.  -Joe


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pasadena-Joe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 2018 at 3:48pm
That video is very interesting, when you slow it way down you see a whole lot more. 

Lots of problems with the ejection.

Block of wood on top of barrel was interesting too. 

Wonder what they used to file this. -Joe
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