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The New Automag

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Category: Auto Mag Pistol
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Forum Description: Message Board
URL: http://www.amtguns.info/forum_posts.asp?TID=2024
Printed Date: 20 Oct 2017 at 8:46pm


Topic: The New Automag
Posted By: Ian
Subject: The New Automag
Date Posted: 10 Feb 2016 at 10:54pm
The following site has gone live today,it looks to be a very interesting project and should generate quite a bit of discussion.

Ian

http://www.thenewautomag.com" rel="nofollow - http://www.thenewautomag.com

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http://www.amtguns.net" rel="nofollow - Ian's AMT Information Page
http://www.glossover.co.uk" rel="nofollow - A little more about me - My corner of the internet



Replies:
Posted By: USA 1776
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2016 at 10:46am
Sounds promising. With the use of the "AutoMag X" designation, I'm hoping Max Gera is involved. I asked them just that yesterday. Let you know if I get a reply.

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'It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.' Ronald Reagan


Posted By: USA 1776
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2016 at 11:22am
Shoulda checked my "in" box before posting. The reply was..."I bought the rights to the Auto Mag x from max and have hired him as a consultant along with Larry Grossman."
"

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'It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.' Ronald Reagan


Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2016 at 3:31pm
This is an interesting slid deck with where they are and the high level plan. 

http://www.thenewautomag.com/s/AutoMag-Chronology-Current-copy.pptx" rel="nofollow - http://www.thenewautomag.com/s/AutoMag-Chronology-Current-copy.pptx

The owner is a very open type of chap and is looking for feedback from AutoMag users, he has some good plans and unlike others he has done a lot of work before coming out and saying what he wants to do, more realistic what has gone on before as you can see from the  Chronology document. 

Ian 


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http://www.amtguns.net" rel="nofollow - Ian's AMT Information Page
http://www.glossover.co.uk" rel="nofollow - A little more about me - My corner of the internet


Posted By: snapcap44
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2016 at 10:04pm
I just own a Model 180 TDE, I've shot it, and I love it
I've seen the PowerPoint !! very impressive ...... very impressive
Greetings
Sapcap44


Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2016 at 10:10pm
Hi Sapcap44, 

A new European AutoMag owner, welcome to the club :)

Ian 


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http://www.amtguns.net" rel="nofollow - Ian's AMT Information Page
http://www.glossover.co.uk" rel="nofollow - A little more about me - My corner of the internet


Posted By: snapcap44
Date Posted: 11 Feb 2016 at 10:34pm
Thank you to have me here.Thumbs UpTNX!!!!!!!!
Greetings

Snapcap44


Posted By: USA 1776
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 5:39am
Yes, Welcome, snapcap! Doesn't matter if you have 1 or 100(or none, but that would be kinda odd), just need to be a fan!

Ian, thanks for that info, I never would have looked in "links" on the website for that info.
But I did link to Bert's site while there and seems he knew about this already.

Would love to get a quick comment from Larry or Max if they get a second.

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'It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.' Ronald Reagan


Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 10:14am
The owner of the New AutoMag site & company has been talking to quite a few people about his plans over the last few months along with what he has been / is doing so he can get a good product, he it looking to get to know other AutoMag owners as well so he can get the feedback that he feel he needs to create a new Auto Mag. 

Ian 


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http://www.amtguns.net" rel="nofollow - Ian's AMT Information Page
http://www.glossover.co.uk" rel="nofollow - A little more about me - My corner of the internet


Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 10:47am
Hi Ian,
I look foreward to talk about this with you next week.
See you soon!


Posted By: tgt40
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 1:26pm
Can we, should we, dare we hope once again!?




Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 3:16pm
I hope so and after chatting with him he is a real person and appears to be doing good work. 

He has had input from the right people and done a lot of work to get to where he is at the moment. 

Ian 




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http://www.amtguns.net" rel="nofollow - Ian's AMT Information Page
http://www.glossover.co.uk" rel="nofollow - A little more about me - My corner of the internet


Posted By: Dances with AutoMags
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 3:20pm
LOL   YES !
 
Patrick Henry is very serious and is doing a professional job in creating the next generation of the Auto Mag.  I have met him and he is a story himself.  Have you seen the movie "Lord of War" ?  Sign up to get his latest updates on the project.  We live in exciting times.
 
Welcome snap-cap from Holland. 
 
Here is an Ideezet or a "Holland Valve".  I finally got one for my pre-1921 triode collection.
 


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An armed society is a polite society.


Posted By: AutoMagyar
Date Posted: 12 Feb 2016 at 5:33pm
This sounds very promising. 
I hope they will offer (new) spare parts as well, for the owners of older/original model Auto Mags.
That would be an excellent sideline of support to offer, in addition to the new Auto Mag-X.
We can only hope, but this indeed looks good.
 
Best wishes to Patrick Henry, Max, Larry, et al in this new endeavour.  Thumbs Up
 
 
Cheers.


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"Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?"


Posted By: USA 1776
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2016 at 8:54am
From the statements made on the website, this sounds like one of the goals of the project. As tgt40 mused..."dare we hope"?

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'It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.' Ronald Reagan


Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2016 at 11:08am
i never believed i would live so long to see it happen sure sounds like the real deal though i wish them luck on their new journey


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2016 at 2:50pm

Interesting for sure, but I can’t help but be completely skeptical based on all the previous attempts to bring the Auto Mag back, and on the words of wisdom shared with us all in the past by people who actually know the firearms industry.

 

To start with, I cant help but feel that building the gun as a hybrid (original design lower and new experiential upper) will be their first undoing.  Wouldn’t it be far better to produce the known quantity that has been tested and its problems are few, well known, and mostly were quality control.  Plus if it were all original you would have a “potential” market in replacement part sales.

 

So then based on Max G’s very specific comments about what is necessary (his words) for the successful production of firearms;  do these folks have any experience in mass production and specifically of firearms? Do they have the specialized dedicated equipment and tooling, or are they relying on CNC and universal machinery.

 

And from Lee Jurras; do they have the facilities to perform the extensive testing needed to ensure their products are safe (remember this is a whole gun not just parts)  Do they have the connections necessary for distribution, it will be very difficult to get a gun into the stores from a very small company.  Like it or not liability will be almost a show stopper for any volume of sales. 

 

Now maybe they have a bigger plan,,,  Build some prototypes, do EXTENSIVE testing, partner with a major manufacturer, there are ways forward, but I don’t see this working as a small business operation, its just too complicated, too expensive, and not likely a successful activity for first-timers to succeed at.  It seems like the best they can hope for is a handful of direct sales before the house of cards falls in. 

 

So to me it looks like a fun project and great dream, but based on all the words of wisdom communicated here by Lee, Max, Bruce, Eric, and others, this looks like a Mount Everest climb to produce a gun that will have a very limited sales potential.  And with todays liability risks, super high manufacturing costs, and challenges to break into a market like firearms manufacturing – distribution – sales, I have my doubts. 


Anyone who wants to bet the cost of one, that I will not be able to walk into any local gun shop and buy one in the next 2, 3, 5 years,,,  well I’m up for that bet.

 

That said, it will be interesting to watch unfold and I certainly wish them well, and I will be very happy to test anything they want to send my way  ;-)



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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2016 at 3:50pm
VERY well said i have to agree with you, why wouldnt they want to keep it all original it would save them money and time?


Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2016 at 3:59pm
George,
a simple answer to your remarks:
Sometimes a (few) men have to do what a man has to do...Wink
I can only take my hat off for them!Clap


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2016 at 4:12pm
Yup, like I said, sounds like a fun project. 

I just don't have any expectation of actually finding any for sale in stores. 

A very limited run of custom special order guns at a very high cost is possible, but any expectation of a production gun for sale in stores seems unlikely.  But never say never, just unlikely.

And as its not my money at risk, I can sit back and wish them well without any fear of loss to me, except for disappointment if it doesn't workout.

This is the history of the Auto Mag.

So we watch, we hope, we dream, we wish them well,,,



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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 13 Feb 2016 at 4:28pm
These guys sound like they are doing their homework and trying to do everything right.

Max has been at this design way longer than was put in on the first design.  The original was changed on the fly and that was not the best way to design something.  I assume they have tested it extensively and it works.  Now, if they can produce the production guns to run like the prototypes is the question.

At first glance I like what I see.  Getting rid of the slotted bolt, accelerator, and bolt rotation spring makes an enormous amount of sense to me.


Posted By: Gerry
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 2:16am
Only time will tell.
I still have mine.
Bon Chance
Gerry


Posted By: Gerry
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 10:57pm
I took some time and this appears to be a well thought plan. I don't see what calibers that will be offered, barrels for old AMP's and a date when the pistols will be available.
Max used to post here. Perhaps Bruce and or Ian could cajole him to use this site to talk about this venture. After all, it was Bruce who tracked him down a few years ago.
Gerry


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 14 Feb 2016 at 11:28pm

Here is an article written by Bert Mason that was on Mark's website.  It says the AutoMagX will be offered in 44, 45, and 475 AMP.  It give a lot of information.

Now that the design has advanced and the manufacturing is under a new owner, who knows what they come up with.


http://automagworld.com/articles/auto-magx-upper/


Posted By: tgt40
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2016 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Gerry Gerry wrote:

Only time will tell.
I still have mine.
Bon Chance
Gerry

You International Man of Mystery you!  Wink



Posted By: KMP
Date Posted: 15 Feb 2016 at 10:06pm
I will have to agree with George. I’m excited, but a little skeptical. I will say, I don’t think it will be as easy as they make it sound, when it comes to bringing it to production. I think their greatest obstacles will be in the frame tooling and machining. The original frame was a nightmare from the first day. Even with modern casting techniques, the frames will be challenging; with it’s thin walls and gun drilling to tubes. I, Bruce and especially Brian have talked about alternative ways, while keeping the cost down. I know what I would do if I produced it…

In the pictures I see piles of parts. This scares me the most. The parts are unknown and too old to use on a newly produced production pistol. They are ideal for keeping the old ones up and running, but for liability purposes, all the new components will have to have material certifications and manufacturing lots accounted for, especially if there’s an component failure. The “certs” will be the first things the Lawyers will ask for during a Request For Discovery.

Also, the weapon should be developed as a “production pistol” allowing parts to interchange with other weapons. With modern technology, there is no reason that this pistol should follow the path of the original by being a “Mass Produced Prototype”. Let’s face it, the AM1 was a “gunsmiths gun”, meaning, if you don’t know how to keep it running, you shouldn’t own it. The Auto MagX has the possibility to turn that around. It needs to be as reliable as a Glock, will that’s pushing it a little, To make it as reliable as a Desert Eagle. A new weapon with a bad reputation will not help sell future weapons. It needs to be perfect, right out of the gate.

I’m glad to see that Larry G is a part of the program. I considered him one of my mentors in the early days. Larry knows production and he know how to safely get a product to market.

Like all of us, I will be watching and I’ll most likely be buying one. In a way, I’m a little envious that I’m not part of the project. Good luck and complete this project!

Eric



Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 12:19am
If it true and it is possible we may see some light I will also be on the list.....if they havent already started one


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 16 Feb 2016 at 12:35am
Regardless if they make it to production or not, it will be a fun project to watch. 

I dont even care if they make guns, I love to see finished parts, Bbls, grips, anything.

And I do like the concept of a Black Chrome Auto Mag, I assume that what the mock up was.

But its a long way from a design mock up to seeing one in the store, so until then I'll go back to looking for other toys,,,  Maybe a mint Series 70 Govt Model or a Diamondback .22 Mag or Colt Sauer or Browning Gold Medallion .22LR or, well so many toys out there I can think of,,,  ;-)

GH


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 1:23pm
Hi guys, Initially it will only be offered in .44 amp and only in one barrel length. Later when things smooth out we will start by adding additional barrel lengths and then we will consider adding other calibers. Thanks for all your interest in the company


Posted By: TRX302
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 1:24pm
Quote do these folks have any experience in mass production and specifically of firearms? Do they have the specialized dedicated equipment and tooling, or are they relying on CNC and universal machinery.

And from Lee Jurras; do they have the facilities to perform the extensive testing needed to ensure their products are safe (remember this is a whole gun not just parts) Do they have the connections necessary for distribution,


The original Auto Mag factory had none of those things. They had Bob B, some used manual machinery for prototyping, and testing, as far as I know, was limited to burning off some ammo at any convenient place.

They're not creating a brand-new product, they're updating an old one. And they seem to have a reasonable business plan that doesn't involve "buy barrels of scrap/reject parts and make tons of money selling new Auto Mags", which is what most of the previous attempts boiled down to.

And they reportedly have Max and Larry on board, which gives them a huge leg up. They're the two guys who *know* that it takes to make an Auto Mag. And from their comments over the years, they probably didn't get either one of them for cheap.

I probably won't be able to afford one if they succeed, but I hope they make it anyway.


Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 1:28pm
We expect the new design to be better is several ways but until we make some and put them though testing I will not be able to prove it. So far all of the parts we are machining from solid stock instead of casting, except the frame and we are doing experiments to see if we can replace the cast frame with a machined one. This makes the parts more consistent as well as stronger and longer lasting. Also both the barrel and barrel extension are being machine from one block of steel and this eliminates the need for welding and grinding. The three most important parts changes are 1. the accelerator system has been eliminated. 2.The bolt spring is replaced by a cam. This reduces a number of parts and makes the slide as easy to pull as a 1911. It also eliminates the possibility of firing out of battery. 3. The bolt was redesign based on the m-16 bolt. It now has 8 locking lugs rather than 6 and they have been reposition to improve feeding reliability. The new bolt has more than twice the surface area and is once again made from solid stock and not a casting. This is estimated to increase the maximum chamber pressure by 50%. If this proves out you would be able to shoot a 240gr bullet at 1750 fps as a standard round. 

This is the agonizing part of building a new gun. It could work first time as designed and we could go into production and stop the black hole of spending without income. I also could be struck by lighting twice at the same place. It is much more likely that something will come up that needs redesigning and this process will add another month before we can test the change and repeat. It could be ready in a month or it may not be ready in a year although my guess it will be between those two. 

I really appreciate this community. There are so many people that love this gun and only want what is best for it. They have already helped me connect with many good people that have added so many ideas suggestions and improvements that I could have never done on my own no matter who I hired. "All of us are smarter than any of us".



Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 1:44pm
We are not using any of the original parts in the Auto Mag X production. Those we only be for resale to original Auto Mag owners.


Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 4:06pm
can somebody there make sure my name gets on the purchasing list!!!!B.D.S.


Posted By: snapcap44
Date Posted: 19 Feb 2016 at 8:01pm
The new bolt has more than twice the surface area and is once again made from solid stock and not a casting. This is estimated to increase the maximum chamber pressure by 50%. If this proves out you would be able to shoot a 240gr bullet at 1750 fps as a standard round. 
 "All of us are smarter than any of us".

[/QUOTE]

Wow!!!!!!!!! Yes man!!!Clapthank you for sharing I no it is in the gun, and now it comes out.
It has the looks!
The brains!
And now the
power!
http://www.thenewautomag.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.thenewautomag.com/



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Fun with my sexy Gun


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2016 at 2:31am
Originally posted by TRX302 TRX302 wrote:

Quote do these folks have any experience in mass production and specifically of firearms? Do they have the specialized dedicated equipment and tooling, or are they relying on CNC and universal machinery.

And from Lee Jurras; do they have the facilities to perform the extensive testing needed to ensure their products are safe (remember this is a whole gun not just parts) Do they have the connections necessary for distribution,


The original Auto Mag factory had none of those things. They had Bob B, some used manual machinery for prototyping, and testing, as far as I know, was limited to burning off some ammo at any convenient place.

They're not creating a brand-new product, they're updating an old one. And they seem to have a reasonable business plan that doesn't involve "buy barrels of scrap/reject parts and make tons of money selling new Auto Mags", which is what most of the previous attempts boiled down to.

And they reportedly have Max and Larry on board, which gives them a huge leg up. They're the two guys who *know* that it takes to make an Auto Mag. And from their comments over the years, they probably didn't get either one of them for cheap.

I probably won't be able to afford one if they succeed, but I hope they make it anyway.


Hummm,,,  Me things you forgot that it only took months for them to fail as a business, and that was 1970 not 2016.  As such Testing - Liability  - Availability of Ammo - Quality Control WILL all be critical.

And contrary to your post, they ARE building a new gun.  the top end will be totally new and is currently an unknown product, and there are indications that the lower will be modified, so this a long road ahead. 

That is not a deathblow, just an up hill battle.  A battle we all wish them well with, but no one is helping them by telling them it will be an easy path, it will be very difficult, but if done right it will be worth it. 

This will not be a test of their advisers (Max and Larry???) or their ability to solve problems, it will be a test of the depth of their wallets, as it will take very deep pockets to see through to production. 

In the end it will be all about money - their assets/cost/length of time to profitability.

And thats the bottom line.




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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2016 at 5:13am
Originally posted by Phenry3 Phenry3 wrote:

We expect the new design to be better is several ways but until we make some and put them though testing I will not be able to prove it. So far all of the parts we are machining from solid stock instead of casting, except the frame and we are doing experiments to see if we can replace the cast frame with a machined one. This makes the parts more consistent as well as stronger and longer lasting. Also both the barrel and barrel extension are being machine from one block of steel and this eliminates the need for welding and grinding. The three most important parts changes are 1. the accelerator system has been eliminated. 2.The bolt spring is replaced by a cam. This reduces a number of parts and makes the slide as easy to pull as a 1911. It also eliminates the possibility of firing out of battery. 3. The bolt was redesign based on the m-16 bolt. It now has 8 locking lugs rather than 6 and they have been reposition to improve feeding reliability. The new bolt has more than twice the surface area and is once again made from solid stock and not a casting. This is estimated to increase the maximum chamber pressure by 50%. If this proves out you would be able to shoot a 240gr bullet at 1750 fps as a standard round. 

This is the agonizing part of building a new gun. It could work first time as designed and we could go into production and stop the black hole of spending without income. I also could be struck by lighting twice at the same place. It is much more likely that something will come up that needs redesigning and this process will add another month before we can test the change and repeat. It could be ready in a month or it may not be ready in a year although my guess it will be between those two. 

I really appreciate this community. There are so many people that love this gun and only want what is best for it. They have already helped me connect with many good people that have added so many ideas suggestions and improvements that I could have never done on my own no matter who I hired. "All of us are smarter than any of us".



I hope you will accept these comments in the way they are intended; as cautionary observations and hopefully helpful feedback.

 

I can’t help but feel that you are operating under a number of seriously flawed concepts. 

 

The comments about the Auto Mag Frame are a bit confusing; if your concern is Frame strength you are misinformed.  Its wasted cost and effort to forgo castings and machine them from barstock.  Frame wear – breakage – durability issues are virtually nonexistent. 

 

Regarding the comments that the new Barrel and Extension are being made from one piece of steel does not make sense, do you mean that each of the two pieces will be made from a single piece of stock and then threaded together?  And what do you mean by grinding, the Barrel taper???  Was that originally ground or cut?  Clearly you are also adding a taper to the Barrel and a Rib, so you are either grinding or cutting that???  As for welding the two together, well I have never had anyone tell me they had a problem with the Bbl to Extension weld.  Sorry, this is again a misplaced concern. 

 

You make reference to your 3 most important changes; after firing tens of thousands of rounds through Auto Mags, I can tell you from firsthand experience that rivals almost anyone here, your concerns are just dead wrong. 

·        The Accelerator is not a problem and never has been that I have heard.  Never heard of a broken one, never heard of a worn out one, never heard of Accelerator problems.  Sorry, NEVER had a problem with one!

·        The Bolt Rotation Spring is NOT the cause of Auto Mags firing out of battery.  Not sure where that idea ever came from, but its being miscommunicated to you.  I have seen guns that fired out of battery because:

o   The Firing Pin and its Spring were gummed up and sticking causing slam-fire

o   I have seen primers melt/burn through and leave a metal buildup on the end of the Firing Pin and then strike the next rounds primer

o   I have seen broken Firing Pin Springs that allow the Firing Pin slam-fire

o   Maybe even a weak Firing Pin Spring that may have allowed a slam-fire

o   And the single most common reason I have seen: the Disconnector system parts not being well fitted/tuned allowing the hammer to drop when it should not have. 

None of these reasons are because of the Bolt Rotation spring.  And, as for the comment about the tension required to cock the gun, well if reducing that tension by 10 or maybe 20% is a major concern (and I can’t imagine why) it seems to me that adding additional very complex camming to the bolt/gun is a poor trade-off, as its not a simplification its yet another item to wear/break/complicate the operation and tuning of the gun.  There maybe a different reason to espouse the concept of a potential positive locking system.  But at the moment it’s a serious gamble for you as it’s a virtually untested system vs a system that has been tested over 4+ decades and millions of rounds.  I would be very interested to see the camming design proposed go through say a 10,000 - 20,000 - 50,000 round test and see what the wear and breakage issues look like. 

·        And finally, regarding Bolt strength, I can assure you this is NOT a problem.  I have not broken one myself in 30+ years, ever!  And I seem to recall Lee Jurras saying exactly the same thing.   Anyone here care to share their experiences braking Bolts or multiple Bolts over the years, or ever???  Me thinks not too many out there.  In the few cases I have seen other peoples guns break Bolts, I’m pretty damn sure they used unacceptable quality ammo and suffered a jacket separation followed by touching off another round sending that bullet through an obstructed bullet, and if I’m right, we don’t design guns to survive that scenario, it just doesn’t happen enough to worry about and not worth your time and effort to worry about.

 

Sorry not meaning to rain on your parade, but your research is not of the right quality and depth.

 

If you want to discuss genuine shortcomings of the original design, here are a few, and please don’t confuse these with the quality problems that existed, these are genuine design shortcomings:

·        Safety Lever Retaining Clip, replace this with a Cap Screw per Lee Jurras recommendations.

·        Update the Ejector material or thickness; they do wear through after extensive shooting.

·        Update the Extractor material; they do break sometimes.

·        Update the Extractor spring, its way too small is deforms and loses tension.

·        Carefully consider the material you make your Grips from; Micarta is the most unbreakable I have seen, but unfortunately also probably the toughest to work with.  Do your homework on this one.

·        Come up with a better means to prevent the Recoil Rods from backing out. Maybe a custom Helicoil insert, with a more robust self-locking capability.

·        Be sure to add the Pocket for the Trigger Bar Spring into the frame.

·        Improve the detent for the Barrel Latch to ensure it stays locked during recoil (yup I have seen them open and the Bbl fly off unexpectedly!)

·        Use only very high quality Mag Springs of a proper tension; Wolfe Gunsprings seems to have dialed in the right tension.   

 

These are genuine problems, as opposed to the ones you have identified.

 

A Bolt Barrel redesign is unnecessary and introduces the unneeded element of an unproven design/untested product and all for a concern that is not an actual problem.  And its implementation eliminates the possibility of interchangeability.  This will turn many potential gun buyers off and cuts you out of the market selling Barrels to the owners of the thousands of Auto Mags currently in circulation as most wont want to buy a Barrel AND a Bolt.    

 

Well that’s enough to cause some here (and some not here) to start spitting ten-penny nails. 

 

I genuinely hope you make the right choices; it’s a big financial investment and you are surely emotionally invested in this effort as well. 

 

All the best.

 

GH




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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2016 at 11:39am
after that......they should consider getting you on board.


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2016 at 2:48pm
NOT, They need way more knowledgeable people on-board, and that would be my ultimate concern. 

This is not some small project like reproducing grips or small parts, we are talking about a whole gun.  A very complex gun that shoots very powerful ammo that you cannot buy from a major ammo provider. 

There are so many hurdles ahead its truly almost insurmountable, thats why so many want-to-be gun manufacturers fail and why virtually all the small manufacturers have serious business problems. 

Its totally possible just very difficult.  If it was easy we would have seen all the predecessors succeed, and truth be told they ALL failed.  Every one even AMT.

But we can hope, watch and enjoy what comes of this.  Maybe some interesting concepts and prototypes, may some parts, and maybe actual guns in volume at reasonable prices. 

Its unfolding in real time and we have a front row seat, so enjoy and hope for a happy ending.

GH


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2016 at 3:56pm
Just go to thenewautomag.com and sign up.

Patrick


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2016 at 4:05pm
What are we signing up for?

Testing, free samples, a new Auto Mag lottery??

Not sure what we are signing up to?  Is there something more than we can see without signing up?

And can you change the sigh up process to eliminate the requirement to provide a phone number, that should be optional.  All to often that leads to trouble, just not desirable to me to share my phone number until I want to.

Thanks

GH

Update, sorry I see the phone number requirement is only on one of the contact info pages. 

Also the link to the Blog First Article does not work for me,,,  Thx -gh



-------------
Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: XP001
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2016 at 4:27pm
That was a great post of comments GH. I hope we get a reply BUT I would also understand if they don't get to it right now as they are working hard at getting this running and tested out. I personally don't have a lot of shooting under these grips and never had time to "learn" or get it tuned up. Your (GH) comments help me understand some issues with this better, thanks for that info. as now I know a little more of what to watch for IF I ever get mine out to play with again, maybe some day this year.
They did say they wanted to get "factory" issue ammo so there is hope to get non-reloaders on board with this for sales. I remember "freedom Arms 454" when it started, they finally figured out they would sell more if "factory" ammo was available, so they went into the "ammo business". They only did this to increase sales to non-loaders and it worked. They got so many people interested in this caliber that other companies finally jumped into making their revolvers for the 454, Ruger(built like a BSH!) and others joined in, then the ammo makers jump into this by making it available. Now Freedom Arms had ammo available by others they quit making the ammo to focus back on main market, the GUN! Their "Freedom Arms Factory" ammo is now a collectable just like the original Automag stuff is.
I mention this because I hope this will happen with the NEW Automag.
Your also correct about us having a "front seat", now that we are older and understand what is going on better with this icon, we can enjoy it better and hope it stays around a long time.

I'm hoping for some examples or prototypes to be shown and maybe even a video of advancements of this. Hoping to see soon. Wish I could be a "fly on the wall" inside this place to listen and learn about why they are doing things. Maybe they will ask me to record the history of making this, lol.


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 20 Feb 2016 at 5:00pm
No responses to my comments expected, just hope it causes them to take a breath and reconsider some choices and also be aware of the actual problems that people who have shoot these things experience.

The Auto Mags is a wonderful gun and I consider myself very lucky to own one/ten/whatever I currently have,,,

So from my perspective the only thing worse than them failing would be if they built a version of the Auto Mag that was not right for the market.

Most here would agree that we would desire a model that is almost 100% a clone of a perfect Pasadena, but maybe with the few changes I spoke about and/or a few others, but not a NEW Auto Mag. 

I for one would really prefer to be able to use my current barrels or buy additional barrels for my guns, and have them all interchange.

I'm also not a fan of the "new"/old original concept gun rib, to my eye it looks very tool-room gun prototype to me.  The Pasadena rib is elegant, refined and just looks right for the gun. 

When Harry changed the rear sights on the B/C and LAST guns I also think that was a mistake, the "Auto Mag" site is perfect right down to the screws. 

Its that level of detail that will work for or against them in marketing a new gun. 

And like it or not, price of the gun and ammo availability will also be a huge factor.  More than $2k and they are out of business before they start.  Do any of you remember the non-existent sales for the Harry Sanford signature guns. And these were hand built by Larry Grossman and had high polished barrels.  Sorry buyers are not going to buy a $4000.00 - $5000.00 Auto Mag.

Same deal with Ammo, if they dont get someone to make ammo, its all done.  The few of us here who might be interested and the few others out there who are not here dont add up to a weeks worth of production.

Selling guns to any reasonable number of people is not just a case of build it they will come, its 50% voodoo, 50% sex appeal, 50% impulse (see it in the shop take it home today) 50% the gun shop has ammo right there to go with the gun, 50% careful planning, 50% price, 50% pure luck, 50% timing, and 100% unknown.  And recalculated against a 100% thats still only 50% of the equation.  ;-)  Sorry I was never good at math, calculus kicked my ass in college,,, 

Well again, more than enough from me,,,

gh


-------------
Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: XP001
Date Posted: 21 Feb 2016 at 4:44am
WOW, do I remember those GREAT looking “Harry Sanford signature” Automags. I do have to point out that they never sold for 4, 000-5,000 brand new, if you were referring to them as such, maybe you are referring to the possible “new Automag price point", not sure and the stopping of that production had nothing to do with “non-existent sales”. I was told it was stopped from a disagreement between parties involved. I was also told less than 70 ever made it out alive. So again another rare model to own, lol.

I also would love to see them continue to make the “old barrels and old related stuff” as well as do repairs to them. They mention they purchased all the old stuff so maybe once they settle in and have “extra” time they can help out customers with the old stuff.



Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 1:38am
I would like to have a Sanford edition.  Missed one at a decent price years ago. 

I do think the new company should offer ammo.   Wildey did.  And they loaded it on Dillon equipment in their shop and sold it.  Probably made them a good bit of money too.  Too many people just aren't interested in loading ammo anymore, and with component shortages, many people haven't been.


Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 2:31am
We have ordered a large amount of cartridge cases and are working out details with a manufacturer to produce ammunition at a comparable price to .44 rem mag. 



Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 3:02am

     Thanks for your suggestions. Here is a update on how we are addressing the issues you identified.

1    

 1. safety Lever Retaining Clip, replace this with a Cap Screw per Lee Jurras recommendations.

        1 In the new design the Safety Plate has been completely eliminated.

·        2. Update the Ejector material or thickness; they do wear through after extensive shooting.

         2 Some ejectors were drilled too deep, causing them to break through.

·        3. Update the Extractor material; they do break sometimes.

       3 8620 specified for extractor and well-polished chambers eliminate this problem.

·        4. Update the Extractor spring, its way too small is deforms and loses tension. 

        4 The new extractor spring has been relocated, increased in size and eliminates the problem.

·        5. Carefully consider the material you make your Grips from; Micarta is the most unbreakable I have seen, but unfortunately also probably the toughest to work with.  Do your homework on this one. 

        5 Grips are inletted into the frame cut-out and eliminated breakage, regardless of the material.

·        6. Come up with a better means to prevent the Recoil Rods from backing out. Maybe a custom Helicoil insert, with a more robust self-locking capability. 

        6 Recoil rods become loose BECAUSE of the Heli-coils. Eliminating them solves the problem. Either we will add Nylock inserts or go to ¼ turn locks. Either will completely do away with even the possibility of loosening rods.

·        7. Be sure to add the Pocket for the Trigger Bar Spring into the frame. 

        7 Still working on improved trigger bar spring.

·        8. Improve the detent for the Barrel Latch to ensure it stays locked during recoil (yup I have seen them open and the Bbl fly off unexpectedly!)  

        8 The take down latch only gives problem if oversized and/or rubs against the barrel extension.

·        9. Use only very high quality Mag Springs of a proper tension; Wolfe Gunsprings seems to have dialed in the right tension.        

         9 Most springs  have been redesigned. 











Posted By: XP001
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 4:29am
Phenry3,
I know you are busy taking care of business and getting things moving but I hope you have somebody within your crowd taking notes and pictures. That would make for an interesting book later, maybe sell them along with your NEW Automag.
Just a thought


Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 9:44am
The idea was to get a list of people that were interested in buying a new gun and give them a preferred price and shipping since we don't have to pay a distributor.

Most all news will show up on the website it just may take a little longer to get there.

You don't have to put your phone number to sign up, that is an option. Only fields that have an asterisk by them are required. i.e. name, email, profile etc.


Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 9:49am
I am working with Bert Mason on this. He has even requested that we save all our screw-up on parts and failed prototypes and send those to him as well. I know we have already missed some good photos. Everyone is so focused on the gun I have to remind them to take photos and videos often. Great idea. 


Thanks,

Patrick


Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 9:58am
We already had Starline make a large run of .44 amp cases and we are going to get a manufacturer that will sell this ammo for around the same price as .44 rem mag. We believe as you do if ammo is not readily available at a reasonable price it may cause some that would otherwise be willing to buy the new Auto Mag to pass.

Patrick


Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 10:16am
Sounds good Pat,I myself would like to purchase one of first ones and try it out. Thanks for keeping us updated!


Posted By: Dances with AutoMags
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 4:57pm

In shooting a couple thousand rounds of .44AMP through an un-modified North Hollywood gun, I have found the accelerator to be a problem.  It needs to stay lubricated and chamber gasses keep blowing lubricants off of the bearing surfaces.  Once the accelerator becomes un-lubricated it sticks or galls.   You people who have actually shot an Auto Mag are sure to have had a situation where a round is chambered but the bolt just doesn't go into battery.  You will just slightly push the cocking piece forward and click it goes into battery.  This is usually a case of the accelerator sticking and preventing the bolt from moving forward.  I use grease to lubricate the accelerator.

Who would argue that the cuts made to accommodate the accelerator don't compromise the chamber strength ?  With these cuts missing, the chamber can withstand higher pressures.

I am a big guy but I still find the Auto Mag to be tough to chamber a round.  By eliminating the bolt rotation spring, the pulling of the bolt back can only be easier. 

Once while working a gun show, an instructor from the Yavapai College Gun School stood at my table looking at an Auto Mag while shaking his head.  He introduced himself to me and said that he felt the use of a spring to put the gun into battery was a poor design choice. 

The cuts required to locate the bolt rotation spring compromises the strength of the rear of the bolt.  This is a weak area of the gun that has a history of failing.  Eliminating the spring will make the rear of the bolt stronger to withstand excessive stress caused by loose recoil rods.

A simple set screw solves the loose recoil rod problem.

A properly designed barrel latch that stays put will also solve some out-of-battery occurrences. 

Just my two cents.  I will bet that this project becomes a reality.  Just too much serious effort and money to think this will not happen.  Smile

Bruce Stark



-------------
An armed society is a polite society.


Posted By: AutoMagyar
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 6:47pm
 
- using Lee's cap screw fix for the safety lever retaining clip is great. Wish I had that on my TDE El Monte model.  Been meaning to order Brian's part like that to replace my clip, just never got around to it, as mine hasn't been lost or acted up, yet.

- I like the idea of the improved grip inletting. Cracking these hard-to-get grips sucks, so this will be welcome.

- and YES, you've got it right with making the new model with no heli-coils. Those ARE the problem, not the rods themselves. I like the idea of a locking device on them. That's a no-brainer to me, should've been done as a product improvement ages ago. Those heli-coils, in this particular application in an Auto Mag, are too sensitive to contamination from lubricants. And since this beast likes to run wet with grease and/or oil, the heli-coils were doomed to have problems, self-locking or not.  And just my humble opinion, I wouldn't go the nylock nut route, not with this pistol. A solid mechanical lock-up with some kind of cross screw or pin, on quarter-turn increments as you mentioned, would be the ticket. Maybe some kind of spring loaded cross-pin? The trick would be to make it sturdy enough to take the recoil forces and not shear. And it would have to be fool-proof, so that it never backsout or bounces out of engagement, until you want it to, with a tool.  (so maybe not spring loaded) 

Just my 2 cents for now. 

This is sounding very interesting.  Look forward to a video of some test firings.  Wink
 
Cheers.
 
 
Oh, and  ps.
Do you think you could re-introduce the AMP mag loading tool (I think it might have been Lee's design, not sure), for those of us that never got one with our Auto Mags?  It's a real simple, but convenient little tool. Should be a breeze to fabricate.  Just a C-channel carved to a certain profile with a pin through it.  Been meaning to make one myself, but if you could crank them out cheap, you'd probably sell a pile of them.
 


-------------
"Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?"


Posted By: Dances with AutoMags
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 7:40pm
Not to take anything away from what Patrick is doing, but, many of these "improvements" are actually Max Gera's first design. 
1) Safety Leaver screw
2) No Heli-coils
3) Locking screw on recoil rods
4) Eight locking lugs
5) Bolt positioning ramps on bolt face, not receiver lugs.
6) Carbon steel construction
7) No welds
8) Threaded barrel into receiver
9) No castings
10) Grips key in frame = eliminates movement, breakage.
11) A reliable method was used to act as a trigger bar spring. 
 
Most of these features were eliminated during the 3 months the Lovendale engineering team was in charge.
 
The Barbasiewicz engineering team didn't vary much from the Lovendale teams designs probably due to time considerations. 
 
Max has of today eliminated 11 parts from the production design. 
 
All these years Max should have been singing "Look what  they've done to my song, Ma."
 
 
Not much longer................................................................................Bruce
 


-------------
An armed society is a polite society.


Posted By: Road King
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 10:17pm
God I love this board........  There are so many knowledgeable people sharing information on a subject we all enjoy.  

My thanks to all for the wonderful and civil discourse.

Charles


-------------
"Whoever said "the pen is mightier than the sword" obviously never encountered automatic weapons."
General Douglas MacArthur.


Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 22 Feb 2016 at 10:57pm
The reason it looks like Max Gera's first design is because it is. Max is a key part of this project.

Patrick


Posted By: Gerry
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2016 at 1:28am
Magna Porting considered?
Gerry
MI



Posted By: Gerry
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2016 at 12:34am
How about a Kent Lomont version in 30 AMP??
Gerry
MI


Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2016 at 12:43am
At best that would be down the road.


Posted By: bbqncigars
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2016 at 1:34am
I am definitely interested in a new 'Max-ed' upper.  As for grip material, I think that G10 might be an acceptable alternative to Micarta.  The black G10 grips I had made for my Coonan Classic are holding up well.  Another alternative that will NOT crack would be to use anodized aluminum like Coonan offers as an upgrade to wood.  As far as grips go, if you send a set of grips to Ron at  http://rmhknives.com/" rel="nofollow - RMH Knives , he can duplicate them in just about any material with any design you can picture/sketch on them.  I will be mailing my insured original AMP grips to him next week.  After that, he should be able to accomodate others requests for AMP grips without your OEM grips.


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2016 at 4:12pm
I have the aluminum grips on my Coonan and I like them.

I have VZ's G10 grips on several guns and they are great.  They are available in several textures from very smooth to quite aggressive.

Let us know how your RMH grips turn out.


Posted By: Mark F
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2016 at 1:52am
Just signed up today!
Good luck,
Mark
p.s. do you send a confirmation e-mail to let us know we are registered?


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2016 at 7:27am
Originally posted by Phenry3 Phenry3 wrote:

Just go to thenewautomag.com and sign up.

Patrick


How?
I just see a page asking a code.

I hope you'll succeed to make the Auto Mag come back.
I don't have the knowledge of other members here, but the only suggestion I would make is to think about an ambidextrous safety and carbon fiber grips Smile


Posted By: TRX302
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2016 at 9:57pm
There used to be a web page. Now there's just a box wanting a password.


Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2016 at 1:02pm
I see the problem and have contacted the website manager to get him to straighten this out. Hopefully he will do it today.

I will put in your suggestions but was curious about the reason behind the carbon grips would that be for function/reliability or looks?


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2016 at 3:25pm
The Auto Mag is definitively a hi-tech pistol (from the start).
Carbon fiber parts are often associated with hi-tech products.
I think carbon fiber grips would be a nice upgrade in many ways.
Of course it would be much more resistant than plastic, but it's also a much more prestigious material to add on a stainless steel gun, and last but not least, it would look cool. Smile

like the grips on the Beretta Billenium:


What about selling the gun in a carbon fiber case to match the grips?
With a touch of stainless or aluminium all around, and an embossed logo on top?
That would be really classy and hi-tech.
But I would still buy the gun in a cardboard box for sure Wink

PS: do you plan to export the gun to Europa?
There is Auto Mag fans here!


Posted By: Phenry3
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2016 at 3:32pm
Yes we do. We are trying to set up a 
distributor that can handle all of Europe so we don't have to find someone in each country.


Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2016 at 3:38pm
Patrick,
Check the ITAR rules before you're go on with a EU distributor.
Rules changed (for import-export) or feel free to contact me if you whish by PM or email.
 
Luc V.


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2016 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by Phenry3 Phenry3 wrote:

Yes we do. We are trying to set up a 
distributor that can handle all of Europe so we don't have to find someone in each country.


Good, but please try  to find one not too greedy!
Distributors have the bad habbit to sell US products X2 the US price (I understand they have to pay taxes, charges etc... but they're also greedy Dead


Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2016 at 6:21pm
John, Looks as though the list of perspective buyers is on the rise


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2016 at 8:39pm
Well, depending the final product and its price (and availability of ammo) I guess the new Auto Mag could get a big chunk of the market of the Desert Eagle in Europe (the only big autoloader available here).



Posted By: Mark F
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2016 at 2:16pm
Just saw the Auto Mag X  barrel completed....COOL


Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2016 at 3:38pm
cant wait to get home now cuz I can't download it on my phone sounds awfully interesting though


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2016 at 1:41am
Sure wish they were using the production Auto Mag vent rib, that concept-gun rib just looks like a tool room mockup to me.  I just dont see any elegance in it at all, and its hard lines seem to conflict with the curves on the Auto Mag. 

Not sure who came up with the rib design on the production guns, but it just seems to fit the gun so much better.  Its THE iconic look the gun has come to be known by.  I wonder if the "want to be Auto Mag owners" will embrace this design or think it looks like an aftermarket knockoff.  Only time will tell I guess.

I'm also not feeling that new rear sight.  The Pasadena rear sight with the outline cut into its blade was a great touch and the whole production rear sight just seemed to be balanced to the gun.  This new design looks like the aftermarket add-on sites people used to hang on 1911's. 

Just not working for me,,,

Wonder if the concept of the left-hand Bbl twist has survived into their design. 





-------------
Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: KMP
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2016 at 3:03pm
Automag,

I totally agree. Retain the original look on the outside, improve the inside, including material choice. I believe they will loose some customers, based on styling changes.

There are other concerns I see as well. Mostly, why start with that large of a barrel blank and "surf mill" it? There are many, more cost effective ways to make that barrel assembly and still retail the original look. Making a barrel in that configuration is nice for a custom one-off build, but not for a production pistol.

ESK 

Originally posted by Auto Mag Auto Mag wrote:

Sure wish they were using the production Auto Mag vent rib, that concept-gun rib just looks like a tool room mockup to me.  I just dont see any elegance in it at all, and its hard lines seem to conflict with the curves on the Auto Mag. 

Not sure who came up with the rib design on the production guns, but it just seems to fit the gun so much better.  Its THE iconic look the gun has come to be known by.  I wonder if the "want to be Auto Mag owners" will embrace this design or think it looks like an aftermarket knockoff.  Only time will tell I guess.

I'm also not feeling that new rear sight.  The Pasadena rear sight with the outline cut into its blade was a great touch and the whole production rear sight just seemed to be balanced to the gun.  This new design looks like the aftermarket add-on sites people used to hang on 1911's. 

Just not working for me,,,

Wonder if the concept of the left-hand Bbl twist has survived into their design. 





Posted By: Porterhouse
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2016 at 3:18pm
Interesting.
Some people prefer Lego over beautifully machined stuff, I guess.


Posted By: wbautomag
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2016 at 3:36pm
The way I see it if your going to make a gun with no welds you dont have a choice and I dont see any more cost in the extra matl. and mechining it then what it would cost to make the lug weld it on make the vent rib weld it on then mechine it again  at least you dont have to worrie about it coming off.


Posted By: KMP
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2016 at 3:36pm
Yes and no. If I knew it was a one-off or a small run, I wouldn't mind it. But seeing that it will be a production pistol, I don't see how they could make the thing cost effectively. For example, if they think they're going to sell the pistol at $2495 MSRP, the general rule of thumb is produce the pistol at 1/3 of it's retail price. That means they got to make that pistol for $832! From what I see so far, that pistol will cost $1200+ to manufacture. 

As mentioned before, thankfully Larry G. is part of the program and he knows how to make a pistol cost effectively.

ESK

Originally posted by Porterhouse Porterhouse wrote:

Interesting.
Some people prefer Lego over beautifully machined stuff, I guess.


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2016 at 4:05pm
From what I have read, Max Gera is very instrumental in the whole scheme of things and I believe that his vision, right or wrong, is a whole new AutoMagX altogether.

The old AMP does not carry much nostalgia with Max.

As far as cost I have figured all along that the price would have to be North of 3K and maybe by a lot.


Posted By: Dances with AutoMags
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2016 at 4:53pm

 

Hi George,

No one can argue with a man's taste.  You either like the looks of something or you don't.  In another thread, one man's highly paid professional models appear to someone to be crack whores.  So be it.

"Sure wish they were using the production Auto Mag vent rib, that concept-gun rib just looks like a tool room mockup to me.  I just dont see any elegance in it at all, and its hard lines seem to conflict with the curves on the Auto Mag. "

I like the looks of the "new" design, but that's just me.  I find the design to not only be elegant and appealing to the eye but functional as well.  I see a threaded barrel and I see a rib and barrel in one piece.  This isn't a new design, it is the first (original) design. 

"Not sure who came up with the rib design on the production guns, but it just seems to fit the gun so much better.  Its THE iconic look the gun has come to be known by.  I wonder if the "want to be Auto Mag owners" will embrace this design or think it looks like an aftermarket knockoff.  Only time will tell I guess."

I think you know that Max Gera designed the gun and is involved with Patrick Henry III to complete the design of the gun as he originally envisioned it.  The "look" is the same.  The new Auto MagX could not be confused with any other gun.  I think "want to be Auto Mag owners" will not notice any differences.  I think you're writing that the new design looks like "an aftermarket knockoff" is a bit harsh.  This completion of the design of the Auto Mag by the original inventor is a thing of beauty. 

"I'm also not feeling that new rear sight.  The Pasadena rear sight with the outline cut into its blade was a great touch and the whole production rear sight just seemed to be balanced to the gun.  This new design looks like the aftermarket add-on sites people used to hang on 1911's."

Factually speaking, except for the outline around the rear sight notch, this sight works just the same as any Auto Mag sight.  An off-the-shelf sight assembly makes for a lower cost in production and ease of finding replacement parts.  A standardized footprint allows for aftermarket upgrades.  It's lighter and smaller.  All plusses +++ to me. 

"Just not working for me,,,"

George.  Not feeling it,  no elegance, conflicts with curves, looks like aftermarket knockoff and looks like a tool room mockup are all just an expression of one man's taste.  I do not want to be snarky, but, although looks are important, your complaints seem to be superficial.  I look at the mechanical improvements and "redesign so that the gun can be made at a profit."  Not a loss-leader. 

"Wonder if the concept of the left-hand Bbl twist has survived into their design."

The old right hand twist verses the left hand twist argument.  The thinking was that with a left hand twist, the barrel will rotate clockwise when fired.  With the bolt rotating counter-clockwise, it was thought that the gun would unlock earlier.  When tests were done, it was found that he barrel doesn't move enough in the frame to make any difference in the unlocking timing of the bolt.  The factory used both left and right hand twists during production.     

I don't see any major design changes that have affected the looks of the Auto Mag.  Max has shown his true genius in completing his design to create a mechanical masterpiece that is the pure art of function.  I spoke with Max last night and he has eliminated another part making 12 parts eliminated so far. 

Please look beyond the superficial changes and focus on the mechanical improvements to the design. 

Function and then looks. 

I want one........Bruce Stark



-------------
An armed society is a polite society.


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 2:14am
Originally posted by Dances with AutoMags Dances with AutoMags wrote:

 

Hi George,

No one can argue with a man's taste.  You either like the looks of something or you don't.  In another thread, one man's highly paid professional models appear to someone to be crack whores. 

I want one........Bruce Stark



Ha, Bruce you make me laugh.

Sure you can argue with one mans taste, and feel free to argue with mine!  We all have our preferences and I have mine.  I can only hope others are not threatened or intimidated, or whatever over mine, because I'm not too likely to change them.  Truly I am not bothered in any way if no one shares my preferences.  But please don't ever expect me to adopt your preferences or pretend to like what I don't like, that would just be ridiculous. 

Within the production run of the original Auto Mag there were lots of variations and I have some strong preferences even within that realm.  I STRONGLY prefer the Pasadena grips, and rear sight!  The Bbls finished during part of the North Hollywood era had a different rib, it was cut differently in front of the rear site, that rib is more attractive to me.  Overall the production Auto Mag rib with it's far more pronounced stanchions is way better looking to me than the Max G concept gun rib.  These are my preferences, YES 100% ! 

But,,, lets also not forget that this is also the iconic look most people specifically identify with the the Auto Mag.  And when they see a Colt Python style rib on an Auto Mag, there is no way they won't see the difference.  It jumps out at you immediately as being VERY different. 

Now some potential buyers may not care about such things at all, and some will embrace the new/old concept gun look, but you must accept that many will look at it and say something looks off and its not the gun they remember and want.  Sorry that's just a reality you must accept.  Sometimes people want a 100% authentic look, I'm that guy.  There is just no substitute for me. 

So for me, its Raquel Welch (circa 1970) or maybe a current Jennifer Aniston, if anyone else likes professional models/crack whores/or anything else I'm OK with that, its nothing to me.  Same with their Auto Mag preferences. 

I could not be happier if everyone here dumped out of all their original Auto Mags and bought new ones or anything else, I should be so lucky.  Sell them Auto Mags!  If the prices are low enough I will buy another safe to fill, but don't hold your breath to find a new Auto Mag in there unless they are a lot less expensive than the originals or they alter the rib design to match the production Auto Mag rib. 

Now if you want to talk about boats I can fill another page about how I HATE bow-riders.   Both of mine are old-school closed bow boats and I will not have anything open bow period not even for free NEVER!  And by the way, I could be in the market for a flawless, perfect, totally mint condition 100% original Wellcraft Excalibur 260 with matching trailer.   But only the cuddy/closed bow, not interested in the bow-rider version in any condition or for any price, period end of story, done!  Just sayin,,,  ;-) 


p.s. Re: "Function and then looks. "  Be realistic, this is America, its looks first then function and truth be told most Auto Mag owners NEVER shoot their guns!  NOTHING is built function then looks, thats just wishful thinking.  If that were the case, AMC would still be in business and we would be driving Marlins and Matadors,,,  Remember we are the country that coined the term "trophy wife"  need I say more  ;-) 


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 2:28am
GH-Hate bow riders?  And here I thought you were my friend on that "other" forum.........

It's funny, we both have older Glastrons, but our tastes do differ.  Actually, I inherited my boat (dad just gave it to me if I could fix it).  He didn't do that with an Automag.....I do like your boats.  They are just stupid fast.

Yes, to each his own.

JW


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 2:35am
Originally posted by BEEMER1 BEEMER1 wrote:

From what I have read, Max Gera is very instrumental in the whole scheme of things and I believe that his vision, right or wrong, is a whole new AutoMagX altogether.

The old AMP does not carry much nostalgia with Max.

As far as cost I have figured all along that the price would have to be North of 3K and maybe by a lot.


Well I think this is probably spot on. 

Max wants to build the Auto Mag he wanted, not restart production of Harry Sanfords Auto Mag. 

And I think your speculation about cost is also probably correct.  I don't see how small batch manufactured guns with this much machining can possibly sell for less than $4k and maybe even more! 

But if by some miracle they can sell them for the underside of $1500.00 there will be some buyers.  Maybe not a lot, but some.  And if that happens Max may have some sense of vindication.  He always left me with the impression he was bitter over the gun that became the production Auto Mag, as opposed to his vision of what it should have been.  I hope for him he gets that satisfaction he desires.


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 3:11am
Originally posted by Porterhouse Porterhouse wrote:

Interesting.
Some people prefer Lego over beautifully machined stuff, I guess.


I very much like beautifully machined parts, thats why I prefer Pasadenas as opposed to late production B and C model Auto Mags.

In the case of the "new Auto Mag" its the style of the vented rib I don't care for, if they can open up the vents to look more like an Auto Mag and less like a Colt Python I'm sure it would be more attractive to me. 

If the their vent rib design works for you, thats great, they will need as many buyers as they can get if this thing is going to have any potential future. 

This is not about machined vs welded to me, that a totally different discussion we could have, but the issue at hand is visual preference, not manufacture process. 

And from a visual perspective (mine) the planned rib looks like Max original toolroom concept gun and is just not attractive to me. 

I make no apologies for my preferences, you don't have to share them, they are simply my preferences and dislikes. 

GH


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 3:25am
Originally posted by jw4570 jw4570 wrote:

GH-Hate bow riders?  And here I thought you were my friend on that "other" forum.........

It's funny, we both have older Glastrons, but our tastes do differ.  Actually, I inherited my boat (dad just gave it to me if I could fix it).  He didn't do that with an Automag.....I do like your boats.  They are just stupid fast.

Yes, to each his own.

JW


Yup, I LOVE them old Glastrons, but driving any boat with people in front of me scares the hell out of me.  I just hear of way to many cases every year of kids falling over the front and getting sucked under the boat and shredded by the prop. 

Growing up in the 60's we had no bow-riders, only closed bow boats and that preference sticks with me today.   Nothing like those old "clothesline" steering cables too,,,

BTW, I think this one is near you,,, http://www.fullthrottlemarinesales.com/pre_owned_detail.asp?veh=4393645" rel="nofollow - http://www.fullthrottlemarinesales.com/pre_owned_detail.asp?veh=4393645

I LOVE this boat, and that 496 Magnum just as a ring to it.  But maybe thats just the exhaust when you switch the Corsa system to open  ;-) 

You should take it for a test drive and tell me why I should replace the Interceptor with it, well unless you decide you have had enough of bow-riders and buy it yourself  ;-)  

GH
 


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: Porterhouse
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 4:23am
All these production cost & profitability discussion is pure nonsense. Who knows if the new owner is trying to make millions of $s or he's just passionated to create quality products and ok with loosing some $ over this venture? The bottom line is, he himself put his own money, not mine, nor yours, to get into this. And I believe, he has way more resource to consult with if this venture makes sense for him or not and did his homework. All what we should say now is, What we want!
I for one am so tired of nothing but retweeked Samuel Colt's or John Browning's century old design and can't stand that ugly Desert Eagle...


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 11:20am
Hummm,,,,  From what I have seen these exchanges are all well intended and reasonable.

I have not seen anyone questioning the New Auto Mag companies motives for profit.  No one has said anything bad about them or any personal assaults against them that I have read.

I very vividly remember people in the past engaging in very nasty personal attacks, and thankfully Ian put a stop to that and for the most part we now only enjoy very reasonable discussions and sometimes light banter, but no derogatory attacks. 

I have seen some speculating about the cost of their operation and the pros and cons of how the work is done.  I cannot comment of those issues, but I do very much enjoy reading peoples opinions about these matters, I think its interesting to hear what they think, and very reasonable. I look forward to such posts by knowledgeable people. 

And any discussion about cost of the gun is totally appropriate.  I can only assume that the Auto Mag company appreciates hearing how much some are will to pay.  They have to make critical decisions about marketability and you should be providing them honest feedback about what you like and dont and what you might be willing to pay for their product.  I think thats why they said they are posting here, to get input for potential buyers. 

So I hope they are reading all this and making reasonable decisions for themselves and potential customers. 

I am personally saying that I don't think I will be a buyer unless the prices is below a certain level, I just don't like the look well enough to buy one and have no desire to own guns I dont like to appearance of.  Thats my preference and opinion, nothing more.

I don't own "work guns/duty guns" and appearance of my guns is important to me, "I" need to like them. 

Now if the appearance changes AND the price is in a certain range, I might be interested.  That will depend on the final product and how they can prove to me its better than the original.  Otherwise why would I buy one?  I still see original Auto Mags in fully operational condition and better, starting at ~$1500.00   So I can get one any time I want and but for a few challenges, they work fine.  In tens of thousands of rounds I have never blown one up or had a major failure.  Yes the retaining ring on the safety lever is a pain, and the original grips break, and they can be super fussy about ammo, and the recoil rods can loosen up, but those are my biggest complaints about the original.

But with that said, if they produce a product that has legitimate improvements and it sells for a right for price and the final product is visually appealing to me, then even with my ~10ish current Auto Mags I might be a potential buyer.  I'm just being honest about where my money will go.

If you are saying you will buy whatever they build and at any price, thats what they need to hear as well. 

Thats all that going one here.   No personal attacks against them or about their motives.  And I hope it stays that way. 


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by Porterhouse Porterhouse wrote:

All these production cost & profitability discussion is pure nonsense. Who knows if the new owner is trying to make millions of $s or he's just passionated to create quality products and ok with loosing some $ over this venture? The bottom line is, he himself put his own money, not mine, nor yours, to get into this. And I believe, he has way more resource to consult with if this venture makes sense for him or not and did his homework. All what we should say now is, What we want!
I for one am so tired of nothing but retweeked Samuel Colt's or John Browning's century old design and can't stand that ugly Desert Eagle...

In the end, cost to produce will dictate success or failure.  Unless he wants to sell at below cost, which I truly doubt, the cost to produce the pistol will dictate the selling price.  

If the price gets beyond a certain point, the selling of the final product will be at such a low volume it cannot survive.

I believe with KMP's background, his cost estimates are probably fairly close and probably low if anything.

JMO


Posted By: AutoMagyar
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 12:57pm
One thing I'd like to also mention is that Patrick has said they are setting up a way to export the new Auto Mag for overseas sales as well.  Although some of you may care less, and it may likely be a drop in the bucket compared to potential US sales, they ought to also keep in mind that whatever they end up asking for it in US dollars is going to be suoer inflated for anyone buying it from another country.  Fees charged by the export company, coordinated with a distriibutor in whatever country you may be talking about, and how greedy they happen to be (i,e, in my case, how much they want to gouge Canadians for the privilege to own one),, plus, a big factor right now at least, is how other countries' currencies are fairing in value (i.e. exchange rate) compared to the US dollar.  If it's a very high cost in the States, imagine how much say a Canuck (or a Brit, Belgian, Frenchman, Italian, etc. Wink ) will have to pay to buy one. 
Hold on, I'm getting out my violin.  But it's true, we get reamed royally on so many things by the middle-men, by the time they get to us here.  I just hope the price ends up half-way sane.
 
 


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"Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?"


Posted By: TRX302
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 1:47pm
Unless the price goes up into the "Kodiak Auto Mag" territory I doubt it will be an issue.

A lot of guys here are into "weird old collectibles" like Auto Mags. Most modern buyers wouldn't touch an Auto Mag with a ten foot pole. It's too old, too weird, parts are hard to find, it's too big for practical carry, it's not competitive in any shooting events, it has no warranty, and the company is out of business. Lots of people admire and drool over them, but not that many will fork over what it takes to buy one.

You're looking at the luxury/prestige market. Which is notoriously fickle, but very profitable if you can make a niche in it.

Magnum Research's MSRP on the Desert Eagle .50 is $1,604.00 according to their web site. Guncrafters prices their .50GI 1911 at $3,185.00 on their web site. Wilson Combat's 1911 in .460 Rowland is $3,940.00. The Korth Combat Magnum .357 revolver is around $5,000. And there are waiting lists for most of those... but your local gun shop can eventually hand you a brand new box with a brand new gun in it, with a warranty registration card, safety propaganda, and a manual that cautions you against things you wouldn't think of doing while not telling you anything you wanted to know.




Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 5:34pm
yes and keeping that in mind I just bid on a baby on GunBroker for $2,400. I wonder if they're putting any thought into a production model of another baby!!!! I could remember fifteen years ago buying three for that much.      BDS


Posted By: Dances with AutoMags
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 8:23pm

 

[/QUOTE]
 
p.s. Re: "Function and then looks. "  Be realistic, this is America, its looks first then function and truth be told most Auto Mag owners NEVER shoot their guns!  NOTHING is built function then looks, thats just wishful thinking.  If that were the case, AMC would still be in business and we would be driving Marlins and Matadors,,,  Remember we are the country that coined the term "trophy wife"  need I say more  ;-) 
[/QUOTE]
 
Wow, I guess that says it all.  You bash the work ethic and then the country.  Have you ever shot an Auto Mag ?  When you are 30 miles from a paved road in -20 degree weather, do you want a snow-mobile that looks good or one that will get you home ? 
 
It follows then that you dismiss the improvements, marginalize basic function and name-call about the looks of the Auto MagX.
 
" NOTHING is built function then looks, thats just wishful thinking."  What about the space program or surgical instruments ? Come on George. 
 
I like you George and look forward to your posts  but you are way off on this one.  I do agree with one of your statements. 
 
"Max wants to build the Auto Mag he wanted, not restart production of Harry Sanfords Auto Mag. "
 
Yep, that's correct sir. 
 
Logic and reason are your friends.   Happy St. Patrick's Day.


-------------
An armed society is a polite society.


Posted By: usrguns
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by 76nova 76nova wrote:

yes and keeping that in mind I just bid on a baby on GunBroker for $2,400. I wonder if they're putting any thought into a production model of another baby!!!! I could remember fifteen years ago buying three for that much.      BDS
 
Did you bid on this one?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=547700444" rel="nofollow - http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=547700444
 
If so you know those are not the original grips??  not sure if that is the original box either!!


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If you can't have fun doing it, then don't do it.


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 17 Mar 2016 at 11:17pm
That gun just sold on the Rock Island Auction last month for $1995.00


http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/1026/lid/1053


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2016 at 2:34am
Originally posted by Dances with AutoMags Dances with AutoMags wrote:

 
p.s. Re: "Function and then looks. "  Be realistic, this is America, its looks first then function and truth be told most Auto Mag owners NEVER shoot their guns!  NOTHING is built function then looks, thats just wishful thinking.  If that were the case, AMC would still be in business and we would be driving Marlins and Matadors,,,  Remember we are the country that coined the term "trophy wife"  need I say more  ;-) 

 
Wow, I guess that says it all.  You bash the work ethic and then the country.  Have you ever shot an Auto Mag ?  When you are 30 miles from a paved road in -20 degree weather, do you want a snow-mobile that looks good or one that will get you home ? 
 
It follows then that you dismiss the improvements, marginalize basic function and name-call about the looks of the Auto MagX.
 
" NOTHING is built function then looks, thats just wishful thinking."  What about the space program or surgical instruments ? Come on George. 
 
I like you George and look forward to your posts  but you are way off on this one.  I do agree with one of your statements. 
 
"Max wants to build the Auto Mag he wanted, not restart production of Harry Sanfords Auto Mag. "
 
Yep, that's correct sir. 
 
Logic and reason are your friends.   Happy St. Patrick's Day.



WOW Bruce I hope you are either joking or just in a bad mood.

This is very uncharacteristic of you to launch into personal attacks.

I'm sorry if you don't agree, but I stand by every word of my posts. 

The world does not build or buy, by quality first, that is just pure fantasy. 

If you are that 1% that shops for a house by pealing back the walls to see whats underneath, then good for you. 

And I salute you for it. 

But the 99% build - sell - and buy based almost exclusively on looks first and then cost and quality is last.  And that's for most consumer products.  That's a harsh reality not of my making. 

You don't have to like it for it to be true.  For example: http://www.torquenews.com/1080/how-car-design-works-start-finish" rel="nofollow - http://www.torquenews.com/1080/how-car-design-works-start-finish

And absolutely I 100% buy my guns, boats, cars, snowmobiles and even house based appearance first. 

First way before any other aspects, I fully admit it without any hesitation. 

I don't care if my guns, cars, boats, snowmobiles, anything are 100% flaw free, but are butt-ugly.  It just won't work for me.  If that works for you, OK, but you can't hold me to that standard, it just not going to happen.

Again you don't have to like it but I am an honest person and there is no reason for me to deny it, I'm not in the least bit embarrassed by my preferences, why should I be.  

The question about having ever shot an Auto Mag is quite surprising, as I feel certain based on our extensive conversations that I have much more Auto Mag trigger time than you.  And in those countless rounds I have never personally suffered a major Auto Mag failure.  And so then your speculation about my thoughts about the internal changes proposed in the new auto mag are correct, I see no need for the bolt redesign.  NEVER had a problem with one myself.  And I doubt too many here have either!

I generally don't care if the bolt design is changed, I just don't see the need for it, its just Max pet peeve, nothing more.  My only objection is that if its changed it creates a situation where any hope of interchangeability is lost.  So it further reduces the likelihood of people like me buying one, as I would want to be able to use some of my existing barrels. 

I don't begrudge anyone who likes the look of the new rib, or who desires the new bolt design, that's up to you, them, and any potential buyer. 

And finally, your comment about bashing work ethic or the country, well that's just insulting and I am very disappointed you would even say such a thing.  

Very disappointed,,,

I hope you will reconsider your comments,  these are horrifically disparaging and completely uncalled for. 

GH


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: XP001
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2016 at 2:51am
OK, it's been awhile and I had to spend some time catching up. I didn't think this thread got anywhere personal against anybody (like the past). I few posters stated their opinion but I thought it was very reasonable. Everybody has their own look on this, even them "models" may be some people taste and not others. 

As for price, function and anything else posted here, I believe it is all fair game. This is a board to express YOUR taste, what works for you may not work for others. I also think posting these opinions MAY help the new Automag people get some feedback and change a few details of some pieces. If they didn't want our feedback on this, they would do the same as the "Kodiak" people did and NOT post any peeks at the progress on it.

I always wanted to know how they attached the rib-to-barrel, a few in the know never wanted to discuss their "magic" about this, I'm sure it's not that hard to figure out but would have been nice for them to just come forward and show/share the knownledge but whatever. As for the new "RIB", I always wondered if this would be the way to go. It avoids the rib from falling off BUT the drawback on this it MAY take more time to make. Would like to know from person in the know which way is faster/cost friendly to do. Not a guess but somebody who did it both ways, not needed to be just this model but any model that somebody has experience with.

As for look first then function, I don't think there is any product that doesn't start as a function item and then they "clean it up". It needs to attract peoples' eyes to sell. Function will stop returns. As for it needs to "look" exactly like the original, they may want to put their spin on it and take the chance of old owners accepting it and hoping to put their mark on NEW owners mind that this is the "BEST" version, knowing it was re-defined and put right without worries of buying a paper weight because they didn't understand the "issues" with this model.

It stopped me in my early collecting years from buying them as I didn't know enough and didn't want to take the chance of getting a bad one. My first one was the Special run made in memory for "Harry", as I figured it would have to be made perfect to honor his part in this. Never did "test" this as I found out there were less than 70 ever made! Beautiful paper weight though, lol.


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2016 at 10:30am
Originally posted by BEEMER1 BEEMER1 wrote:

That gun just sold on the Rock Island Auction last month for $1995.00


http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/1026/lid/1053


Capitalism and availability at work,,,

Not much you can do about it.

Its a case of how bad do you want something and how quickly.

If you want something and in a rush you pay more, otherwise you must wait and sometimes a long time,,,

Sadly I remember when J & G were selling them for crazy short money, I'm thinking like $299.00 new in the box.  Wish I bought like 10 from them,,,

gh




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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: 76nova
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2016 at 10:33am
Thats my luck...someone will probably make a few bucks off me!!


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2016 at 10:41am
I suggest we ball and chain Brian to a machine shop and have him crank out another batch of BAM's  Cool


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Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: Dances with AutoMags
Date Posted: 18 Mar 2016 at 2:57pm
Max Gera wrote: "Every single visual line on the Auto Mag is there because of its function, except for one: The rib: I intentionally copied the Colt Python’s rib in my original design simply because it was the one of most beautiful and hottest revolver of the times.

The only reason the rocket scientist went to posts rib, was so they could weld it on. . . Also, I’m sure the they added the abominable “safety plate” because of its esthetic appeal. . .

Max"


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An armed society is a polite society.



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