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RCBS Carbide 44amp

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Topic: RCBS Carbide 44amp
Posted By: John Nada
Subject: RCBS Carbide 44amp
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2014 at 3:43am
Is it worth it?

I mean this die set is pretty expensive.
Do you think getting a carbide set to not have to lube worth $100 more?



Replies:
Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2014 at 1:42pm
It depends on how much you are going to shoot it.  I do not shoot that many rounds at a time anymore (too old I guess), so steel dies are fine for me.  If you are going to shoot it a lot, carbide is the way to go.

The 44 AMP is a tapered case, so the carbide dies take that out when sizing.  I do not know if that makes any difference or not.


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2014 at 11:08pm
Right now I only have a Hand Press, but  later I will buy a Turet press.
I was told the original RCBS die set is not very convenient with modern press.


Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2014 at 2:19am
John,
 
what do you mean the original set is not convenient?  It really doesn't matter with a single stage or manual turret, but there are some differences, but they are not insurmountable.  You can read this article I wrote some time ago:
 
http://www.amtguns.net/articles/j-waters/automag-loading-case-forming-dies/" rel="nofollow - http://www.amtguns.net/articles/j-waters/automag-loading-case-forming-dies/
 
Basically, older RCBS sets like from the 1970's, have the sizer as one die, and the expander contains the decapper.  the third die was a seater or seater/crimper, and the fourth (if included) was a crimper only. 
 
You could order an optional decapping stem for the sizer, it's basically a decap rod from any RCBS die with a threaded adapter for the sizing die. 
 
The problem with using a modern press is really when you get to a progressive.  Take a Dillon 550, it relies on sizing/decapping in the first station, and primes on the downstroke.  This creates a problem in the first station because you don't have a decapper in a 1970's RCBS die set.  You can add one with the correct parts, either borrowed form another set that has the correct parts, or bought from RCBS.  Lastly, you could always decap in a separate single stage press before reloading. 
 
Now that you got that fixed, the second station is going to charge powder.  With the Dillon 550, you will buy a 44 mag powder funnel/expander, and you will not use the RCBS expander die at all, it will stay in the box.  If your progressive needs an expander die, then you can try removing decap pin and see if that works, or use a 44 magnum expander die from a modern set.   
 
The third and fourth dies are really just fine for a progressive like a Dillon 550.
 
Obviously, reloading tools have progressed over the years, and be prudent to ensure you are performing operations in a safe manner.  I applaud you for starting with a single stage press.  You can understand each operation that way much better. 
 
What source of dies are available in France?
 
If you have any questions on dies, let me know, and I'll do my best to answer them.
 
Jason
 
 
 
 


Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2014 at 2:28am
I have a carbide die, but have never used it yet.  I added it last year, but like Beemer don't shoot that much anymore, and I can still load 150-200 rounds an hour on a Dillon 550 in 44 AMP even lubing cases.


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2014 at 10:52pm
Thanks for the explanation Jason.
that is what I heard about the old RCBS die set not being to best to get on modern press.

Here in France I can't locate any dies for 44amp.
I have a friend who can sell me an old RCBS die set.
I'm not sure it is the best one to invest.
So I'm ready to import one from the US.

The Hornady set is really cheap right now (les than $40+ shipping), that is a big difference with the expensive carbide RCBS one.

I'm a newbee at reloading. I have only reloaded 44-40 with black powder with a Hand press so far.
The lube part isn't the most fun, but that is not terrible either.

I think some die set are better than other for the crimp part.
What would you chose between old RCBS, Hornady, or the new carbide RCBS?
Thanks






Posted By: Gerry
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2014 at 5:25am
Ditto to Jason
It works
Gerry
MI


Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2014 at 5:50am
John,
 
The Hornady set works fine, though some people have had issues with the spring clip that holds the floating seating assembly in.   I have not had that problem with any Hornady dies, but it was mentioned here I believe.  I use an older RCBS set to load on a Dillon 550.
 
How much is the old RCBS set?  Is it a 3 or 4 die set?


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2014 at 1:58pm
I have both the Hornady (I could not find RCBS when I got my first AMP) and an old set 4 die RCBS set.  I much prefer the RCBS.  I really do not think that the carbide die is worth the extra cost in 44 AMP and all my other pistol dies are carbide.

JMO


Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2014 at 3:09pm
I'll throw in my 2cts as well...
 
I use the (old) steel RCBS dies which require caselube to resize. I even use those dies in my hornady progressive press. They work just fine in the automatic press. However, there is one trick I learned from Jason (jw4570) to make it work smooth. Don't use the sizing lube made from RCBS, as that lube makes the cases to sticky. Jason told me to try the dillon (spray-on) caselube. I did and that lube is pleasant to work with. Just lay the cases on a tray, spray them a little and shake the tray to coat the cases evenly. (done in seconds)
I sometimes drop the cases in the casefeeder of the LockNload, spray some lube on them and thats it, the press does the rest of the work and it works great!
 
As far as the carbide die, I wouldn't spend extra money on it, so I would choose the old RCBS steel dies.
Just my 2cts.


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 28 Nov 2014 at 2:11am
Jason,
I don't know the price as the dies are sold in a package with 2 boxes of Norma amo.
I will ask him if it's the 3 or 4 die set.




Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2014 at 12:56am
It is the 4 die set.
Is it really better than the Hornady one?
(does the Hornady has the "taper crimp"?)
Thanks.


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 02 Dec 2014 at 1:49am
Originally posted by John Nada John Nada wrote:

It is the 4 die set.
Is it really better than the Hornady one?
(does the Hornady has the "taper crimp"?)
Thanks.

The only Hornady sets I have seen are 3 die sets without the taper crimp die.

I have both brands and I have not used the Hornady set since I got a set of RCBS with a pistol I bought.  In my opinion, they are much better.


Posted By: AutoMagyar
Date Posted: 03 Dec 2014 at 5:52pm
You simply cannot go wrong buying that 4 die RCBS set, ammo with it or not. The original RCBS taper crimp die in the set would cinch it for me.  Hard to beat the quality of the RCBS dies.
 
I have the old RCBS .44 AMP 3-die set with the TC die, but wish I had a 4-die set too, just because.  ;-) 
Just as these guys above have said, the carbide die for .44 AMP is overrated, for the price.
Now if it were realistically priced like other calibers' carbide dies, say like .40 S&W, then I'd buy one.  But not for that premium.


-------------
"Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?"


Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2014 at 12:38am
John and AutoMagyar,
 
I went through my dies sets and came up with a 1970's 4 die set for John.  It's nice and clean, I's sell it for $110 plus whatever the shipping is.  I will not be responsible for customs or what customs does (ie, takes it or whatever).  To my knowledge, there is no issue with shipping dies from the US (though apparently Brass and components are not good).  I would be willing to include a new production RCBS expander that does not have a decapper for an additional $20.  I can fit it all in the older RCBS box which should fit in a priority mail small flat rate box and shipping is probably $20-30 or so overseas, but I would have to check using your address and see if I could ship them. 
 
AutoMagyar-I think you are here in U.S., correct?  Well, I have a 70's RCBS 4 die set where the label is rotten, it's missing the seater die (so there are really only 3 dies), and the knurling on lock ring of the sizing die is monkeyed up from pliers.  If you want to complete that 4 die set of yours, how about $75 plus shipping on this partial 3 die set one?
 
Anyway, just trying to help out.  If John gives me a nay on the 4 die set, it's welcome to someone else.  I was eventually going to get around  to listing it.
 
Shoot me an email if this helps you out and you are interested.  I can get pics, but this weekend is nuts, will probably have to be next week before I can them out.
 
Jason


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2014 at 1:06am
Thanks for your offer Jason,  but I'll pass.
I'd rather get the set localy if I chose to get the 4 die RCBS set.
Thanks anyway.



Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2014 at 1:12am
John,
 
No Problem.  If you find a set and want to know if all the parts are there, feel free to post pics here and we all can help.  Hope you find a good Automag soon.  It must be tough in France to find Automag items, it's bad enough over here.....
 
Jason


Posted By: Porterhouse
Date Posted: 06 Dec 2014 at 4:21pm
If you can get Hornady set with reasonable price, why not? Please think about this; What makes great dies? Looks? Brand name? Convenience?
In my opinion, good dies are those that allow you to make dimensionally uniform loads every time. If some one has both RCBS and Hornady and only used RCBS and never used Hornady, how could he or she can tell which is better? I'm not good enough to tell which tool is better without at least use them a little. If I were you, just buy Hornady and done with it. There are a lot more that you will have to think about and pay attention to.


Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2014 at 2:11am
Porterhouse,
 
I have used both die sets in 44 AMP.  And both produce fine ammo. I have mainly RCBS dies, but have some from Lyman, LEE, Hornady, Herter's, Pacific, and Dillon. 
 
I find the Hornady set a pain to adjust the seater/cimper (not just in 44 AMP, and I hate them with lead bullets, as it's not easy to reset after cleaning out lube).  Once, adjusted, it's done and fine.  However, two people here I trust had problems with the Hornady set and the c-clip (that's not really what it is, more of a wire clip) breaking. 
 
I discontinued using my Hornady set for 44 AMP once I got an RCBS set. 
 
All that being said, if you need a 9.3x57 Mauser die set, buy the Hornady set as you can form the brass from 8x57 Mauser with no additional tools. 
 
So sometimes it depends on the caliber, and the press you use the dies in as well!
 
If you are only going to load one load (requiring minimal die adjustments), and only use jacketed bullets (which you should only with the AMP in my opinion), then the Hornady set should serve anyone fine.  Hornady used to have erroneous data out there this was a TiN set requiring no lube, but it's a steel set.  Again, no problem using the proper lube.
 
Jason
 
 


Posted By: wbautomag
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2014 at 11:38am
Jason same here I got the Hornady die set  when I got my frist 44 because that was the only ones I could get quick and I  seen why after useing and after making up frist  few loads I ordered the RCBS dies and wont buy any more  Hornady dies.


Posted By: caz345
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2014 at 11:12am
If anyone has a spare RCBS sizing die for the .44 AMP they are willing to part with let me know, apparently mine from 1977 is out of spec or something, Every time I try to resize a case it rips the rim off of the case , and it does this with brand new unfired Starline brass! I have used Hornady one shot lube and the Dillon lube but the case always gets stuck, the die looks like new but must be undersized, I even took it down to Dillon with a few cases and the same thing happened there so they are saying that the die is out of spec. Has anyone else ever had this issue with the old RCBS dies too?


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 11 Dec 2014 at 11:49am
I really doubt that the die ia undersized.  

Get some Imperial Die Sizing Wax and try that.  

Hornady One Shot works well for lighter sizing jobs.  From my experience, the Dillon lube can be "application  sensitive".  The Imperial Wax is great for heavy sizing work.


Posted By: caz345
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2014 at 6:36am
Thats interesting but even with the dillon lube I had no problem resizing .338 Lapua magnum rifle cases and yet its tearing the rims off of already sized brand new Starline brass, something is not right, the folks down at Dillon even thinks theres a problem with the die. I load about 7 different calibers and never had this issue before.


Posted By: Luc V.
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2014 at 7:06am
Since you're talking about tearing the rims off, are sure you have the correct shellholder?


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2014 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by caz345 caz345 wrote:

Thats interesting but even with the dillon lube I had no problem resizing .338 Lapua magnum rifle cases and yet its tearing the rims off of already sized brand new Starline brass, something is not right, the folks down at Dillon even thinks theres a problem with the die. I load about 7 different calibers and never had this issue before.

Sounds like you know what you are doing and like wise I have never had a problem like that either.  I have never stuck a case but I have come close and it was always caused by improper lubrication on my part.

Does the inside of the die look rough or dirty?  Have you tried polishing it with a bore mop in a drill and some type of polishing compound?  What did Dillon recommend?

Even if the die was small, with proper lubrication you should never stick a case.  I have loaded a lot of wildcat cartridges that drastically change  the brass and with the Imperial Wax, no problems.

Sorry, I am not more help.  Good luck.


Posted By: Porterhouse
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2014 at 2:49pm
Why don't you just call RCBS and send the die for inspection? Many of these companies offer great customer service and fix it for free.


Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 12 Dec 2014 at 10:48pm
I agree, if it's way out of spec, RCBS will most likely make good on it.  They have changed their warranty in that it only applies to the original purchaser. 
 
I had a bad 38 S&W die from RCBS, it was definitely machined out of spec.  They replaced it. 
 
Can you show some pics of the die, and what is stamped on top of the die?  I'm wondering if someone didn't put a 44 mag sizer in their or something else that isn't an Automag sizer.
 
If it's properly lubed, like BEEMER said, it should come out. 
 
I have stuck numerous cases, and it's usually been from poor lube.  I will not use one-shot.  However, I have never had a problem with Dillon or Midway lube.
 
Jason


Posted By: Porterhouse
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2014 at 1:49am
Even they don't fix it for free, it's way better to have the original manufacture inspect it than getting frustrated and mess it up by some guessing work.

Jason,
If you tried both RCBS and Hornady and preffer RCBS, that is a great advice.
It seems like many people have difficulty adjusting Hornady seater/crimp die thus hate Hornady. Some of my calibers, I have two of them and use one for just as seater die, and the other for just crimp die and love that seater sleeve concept. I'm not trying to defend Hornady but again, if it's reasonably priced and available, I don't think it's bad idea.


Posted By: caz345
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2014 at 5:05am
Dillon thought the die was out of spec, I called RCBS and they said if I send it in they will check it and if its out of spec they will replace it with a new one, I asked if they replaced it if there was any way I could have the old one back also just so I have an original set from the 70s but they said they probably wont give the old die back with leaves me with seeing if they can bring this one back to spec or just spending the money and buying a RCBS carbide die from them, unfortunately its a 16 week wait    Anybody have a polishing compound they recommend?
here are some pics of the die.

http://s90.photobucket.com/user/caz245/media/guns/file-24.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


http://s90.photobucket.com/user/caz245/media/guns/file-25.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


http://s90.photobucket.com/user/caz245/media/guns/file-27.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">



http://s90.photobucket.com/user/caz245/media/guns/file-26.jpg.html" rel="nofollow">


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2014 at 5:17am
Originally posted by caz345 caz345 wrote:

...or just spending the money and buying a RCBS carbide die from them, unfortunately its a 16 week wait .


Or you could order it there:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/351094/rcbs-carbide-3-die-set-44-auto-magnum

I nearly did, but they don't ship outside USA.


Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 13 Dec 2014 at 6:25pm
That die doesn't look rusty inside.  I would be surprised if it's out of spec.  And yes, RCBS always keeps the old die, and I'm ok with that if they replace it, can't ask much more under a lifetime guarantee. 
 
Jason


Posted By: Auto Mag
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2014 at 3:52pm
Just a couple of comments from the cheap seats;

First and foremost, dont waste your money on an RCBS Carbide die (and yes I have one and have used it extensively)  I am convinced it is not a good option for making Auto Mag Brass unless you are going to add another sizing step with a proper tapered die.

Second, I fully agree with the other comments about sending the die to RCBS, let them tell you for sure so there is no second guessing.

Third, per other comments, make sure you have the correct shell holder, it should be for a .308 not a 44 Magnum!

Next check the brass, as I recall Starline had a problem with their first batch and I have had countless Starline cases that were very short, so its possible you have some bad brass.  Its not my first thought, but a possibility.  If you have the Case Forming kit, you could try a .308 case on the die in question and see if you still have the same problem.

Once you get the process figured out, consider a set of dies from C & H / 4-D with the TiN coating, Its the only sizing die I use for Auto Mags.  I have no reason to try anything else as these just work perfectly.

Best of Luck

GH




-------------
Who was that masked man,,,


Posted By: caz345
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2014 at 6:49pm
Automag, Thanks for the info, any chance you could give me a quick call when you get a free minute?
my number is 602 770 4890.

Thanks, Caz


Posted By: caz345
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2014 at 7:12pm
I just got 1000 pieces of new unprimed Starline brass I did some random checks of several pieces of brass and they are averaging 1.295" - 1.296" the Hornady 9th edition reloading manual specs are :
Max. Case Length 1.298"
Case Trim Length 1.293"
So they should be in spec.

However under Case it states: "308 Frontier Reformed

Not sure it that makes a difference or not?


Posted By: caz345
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2014 at 1:13pm
Originally posted by Auto Mag Auto Mag wrote:

Just a couple of comments from the cheap seats;

First and foremost, dont waste your money on an RCBS Carbide die (and yes I have one and have used it extensively)  I am convinced it is not a good option for making Auto Mag Brass unless you are going to add another sizing step with a proper tapered die.

Second, I fully agree with the other comments about sending the die to RCBS, let them tell you for sure so there is no second guessing.

Third, per other comments, make sure you have the correct shell holder, it should be for a .308 not a 44 Magnum!

Next check the brass, as I recall Starline had a problem with their first batch and I have had countless Starline cases that were very short, so its possible you have some bad brass.  Its not my first thought, but a possibility.  If you have the Case Forming kit, you could try a .308 case on the die in question and see if you still have the same problem.

Once you get the process figured out, consider a set of dies from C & H / 4-D with the TiN coating, Its the only sizing die I use for Auto Mags.  I have no reason to try anything else as these just work perfectly.

Best of Luck

GH




Auto Mag, Can I just get the CH /4D Sizing die and use the RCBS bullet seating sie and the RCBS Taper Crimp die, or do I need the whole set from CH /4d? And yes Im using a .308 shellplate.

Thanks


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2016 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by jw4570 jw4570 wrote:


You could order an optional decapping stem for the sizer, it's basically a decap rod from any RCBS die with a threaded adapter for the sizing die.


Hi,
I'm about to order my Turret press, and I would like to modify the RCBS dies to use them as any other die sets.
Where can I buy the parts above? (decap rod + adapter)
I didn't find anything on the RCBS website.
If you got any links on MidwayUSA or else, let me know.
Thanks.

PS: so I just have to add the decapping stem on the sizer, and use a modern 44 Mag expander.
That's all?


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2016 at 5:52pm
Anyone?

By the way, if you don't know: the decapper from the expander doesn't fit in the sizer.
There must be a special one for the sizer.


Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 12:37am
John,

When using a turret,

Put a decap assembly in the sizing die.  The stem is any standard RCBS decap stem (large pistol type).  problem is you need the threaded adapter from that die to the decap stem.  only place I know that sell them separate is CH4d.  For a 357 AMP, it's small and you can use it from an RCBS rifle set.  I can't remember the us thread sizes used right now.  I'll have to pull a set and look.  I usually search for parts in the junk parts bin at larger gunshows, but this size is hard to find!

You can use a universal decap die first too.

as to the expander, any 44 mag expander will work (or if using the Dillon, use a 44 mag powder funnel).  Or you can take the decap pin out and the expander should not hit the bottom of the case and you can use your old one.

Jason




Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 2:06am
John,

I got out of the closet a set of RCBS 44 AMP dies with the optional decap.  The decap assembly you need is for large pistol and threaded 1/4-28.  You then need an adapter to go from the 1/2-20 threads in the die to the 1/4-28 threads on the decap rod (most likely you can take this rod from a large rifle set, even if it has an expander ball, it shouldn't be big enough to cause and issue, like 30-06 or so). 

The hard parts is that adapter (I think RCBS calls it the guide bushing), like this one:

http://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/parts/rh

It's the correct threads but I'm not sure it's threaded through for adjustment of decap length (some are and some aren't depending on brand).  If it's not, you have to cut down the decap rod to get the correct decap length for the 44 AMP.  Obviously you would not want to do that to a rod from another die set you use.

they have lots of rods too:

http://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/parts/dr

I still think RCBS should be able to help you.  I pulled out the 1976 RCBS Reloading Catalog (I know most people have misplaced theirs......I actually bought it just to research Automag Dies) and it list the Optional Decapping Assembly as part number 09617 Decapping Assembly, Large (.41 to .45 caliber). It says it includes Guide Bushing, Decapping Rod, Pin and Holder and Lock Ring. 


I doubt the $3.00 list price is still goodCry

Hopefully this helps.  Sorry I don't check that often.  Work and Family commitments keep me busy these days.

Jason


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 11:57am
Thanks a lot Jason.

I couldn't find the Optional Decapping Assembly on RCBS website.
I think the best thing to do is to contact ch4d and see what they can provide me.
At least, thanks to you, now I know that the inner thread of the sizer is 1/2-20 Smile.



Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 21 Jan 2016 at 10:39pm
John,

I know they still make it.  It's included with Certain Custom Die sets.  You would have to contact them.  Their website doesn't show all parts.

The CH4D is not drilled through based on my memory (I don't have a set).  So you would have to shorten a rod or order one the correct length.  RCBS ones are fully threaded and easy to shorten.  I remember having to do this on some die set.  Actually, it's probably the 44 AMP set in my Dillon.......But I used the adapter piece from a junk die.

Jason


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 23 Jan 2016 at 3:09am
Originally posted by jw4570 jw4570 wrote:

John,

I know they still make it.  It's included with Certain Custom Die sets.  You would have to contact them.  Their website doesn't show all parts.

In this case, I'll contact them.
Thank you.


Posted By: Gerry
Date Posted: 24 Jan 2016 at 3:04am
I think you want to talk to Betsy{?} or she will put in touch with the boss.
Gerry
MI


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 25 Jan 2016 at 11:41am
Thanks Smile


Posted By: John Nada
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2016 at 2:28am
Originally posted by jw4570 jw4570 wrote:

I doubt the $3.00 list price is still goodCry

You're right: now it's free! Big smile

RCBS told me they'll send the parts free of charge under warranty!
That's customer service! Smile

I'll let you know what I'll get...


Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 02 Feb 2016 at 10:16pm
John,

I doubt they would do that for me who has about 1/2 dozen sets of these type dies.  I just change the spindle between them.  I don't want to wear out my welcome.

That was serious nice of them!  I have had them replace about 3-4 dies, fix a scale, and send me small parts here or there for free as well (they sent me for free a .311 expander assembly for my 7.62x39 dies that came with a .308 expander back in the day now that .311 bullets are easily available).  One reason I buy their equipment. 

Lyman, Lee, nor Hornady has been so accommodating.  The guy at Lyman was understanding when I was upset that my 38 S&W die set came with a SWC type bullet.  I haven't ever seen anything but RN in the factory boxes or books over the years but Lyman puts a SWC seater in the die set (FYI RCBS puts BOTH).  He still charged me for the RN seater stem but gave me actual cost on shipping (it was only $7 or so back then).  That was 20+ years ago.  Of course I couldn't return it because it was opened and there was nothing wrong with it.  However, Lyman hasn't gotten any of my money for a die set since (not new at least, I have had a could used sets).  I do have some of their equipment, and it's really fine, but just that thing always bugged me.


Jason


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2018 at 6:06pm
Resurrecting an old thread here. I have a steel RCBS four-die set circa 1975 that requires lubing the cases. Right now Midway has the three-die carbide sets on sale. What I can’t get an answer to is whether or not the Automag case requires lube with their carbide dies. They issue a caveat that the .30 M-1 carbine carbide die set requires lubing every fifth case or so, ‘because it is a tapered cartridge’. Well, isn’t the Automag case similarly tapered?

I would be sorely tempted to buy the carbide sizer die if it meant I could do away with lubing altogether, but if I still need to lube some of my cases, I would just continue using my old setup.

Who here actually reloads using the carbide die, and does anybody do so without lubing at all?


Posted By: Rumore
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2018 at 12:31pm
The AMP has about .010" taper, the Carbine . 020".

Tony




Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 4:32am
Originally posted by Pantera Mike Pantera Mike wrote:

I would be sorely tempted to buy the carbide sizer die if it meant I could do away with lubing altogether, but if I still need to lube some of my cases, I would just continue using my old setup.

Who here actually reloads using the carbide die, and does anybody do so without lubing at all?


Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?


Posted By: Rumore
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 2:11pm
The AMP has about the same body taper as a 9mm and a carbide 9mm size die doesn't require lube.
With that in mind, I would venture to guess that the 44 AMP carbide die won't need lube either.

Tony





Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by Rumore Rumore wrote:

The AMP has about the same body taper as a 9mm and a carbide 9mm size die doesn't require lube.
With that in mind, I would venture to guess that the 44 AMP carbide die won't need lube either.

Tony





Thanks. Nobody I spoke with at RCBS seems to know if that’s actually true or not. I figured with all the Automag owners here, SOMEBODY must be using carbide dies and could share personal experience? Of course the conservative course of action would be to lube the cases whether they required them or not. So I guess I’m looking to see if there is one or more adventurers who have dared to not do so and lived to tell the tale without getting a case stuck in the die?


Posted By: tgt40
Date Posted: 28 Feb 2018 at 7:20pm
With big cases like the AM or the .44 rem for that matter I lube anyway...the operation is just that much easier.  If I was doing five or 10 cases I wouldn't bother but for 50 or more a spritz of lube (I use Dillon's spray bottle application - way cleaner than the old lube pad) makes things go smooth.

Then they go into the tumbler for 10 minutes and everyone is happy.

Do you HAVE to?  Nope.  




Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2018 at 10:31pm
Revisiting a long-dead topic here. 

I managed to get a good deal on a set of RCBS .44 AMP dies with a carbide sizing die so I picked them up, and they arrived today. I did a bit of resizing with both conventional and carbide RCBS dies and then busted out my micrometer. 

The conventional sizer respects the taper in the original cartridge design. A resized case measures about .580 at the top, then grows to .630 about halfway down, finally measuring .680 just before the groove at the bottom of the case. 

By contrast, the case sized with the carbide die measures .580 at the top, and .580 almost all the way down until nearing the bottom it suddenly swells to .680. It seems as though the die is turning the .44 AMP from a tapered case to a straight-sided revolver-style case with a bell bottom. 

So, is there a disadvantage to this scheme? It does strike me as a bit odd. I was hoping the die would have a longer, tapered carbide insert that would retain the original shape, rather than fundamentally altering the shape of the case. What are the ramifications of having a case that is a snug fit at the front and rear of the chamber, but loose in the center? Of course under firing the case will deform to match the contour of the chamber, but will repeated cycles be cause for case fatigue that might be absent with a conventionally resized case?

Or am I overthinking all this, and should I just be happy that I (apparently) don’t have to lube cases anymore?  (The handful of .44 AMP cases I resized with the carbide die with no lube seemed perfectly happy, and felt barely different from .44 Magnum revolver cases sized with a carbide die...)


Posted By: richie_b
Date Posted: 29 Aug 2018 at 11:34pm
I haven't read thru this thread yet, but I was working up a batch of 50 cases from LC 7.62 military brass this week. It's been cut and trimmed to length, and just for S&G I tried a case in an unlubed RCBS 40039 sizer die. It would only go halfway and bound up. I pried it out and lubed it with a very thin coat of STP and it slid through like **** thru a goose...  Wink

I do use a carbide .45 ACP sizer die but that case is too short to make much difference. I would stick with the original steel RCBS die and whatever lube you prefer...

...$.02...  Smile



Posted By: jw4570
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2018 at 2:03am
Mike,

are you loading single stage or on a progressive like a Dillon. I load all my 44 AMP stuff on a Dillon 550B. Works great. Just clean the die with a swap every 100 rounds or so. It's not like I shoot the Automag high volume.

Jason


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2018 at 2:14am
I’m using my Dillion 450B I got for my high school graduation present in 1984. Best money anybody ever spent as it’s still going strong!

Thumbs Up

But that doesn’t address the fundamental issue—is there any adverse effect of turning a tapered case into a straight-sided case again and again?


Posted By: desertmoon
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2018 at 2:27am
Originally posted by Pantera Mike Pantera Mike wrote:

I’m using my Dillion 450B I got for my high school graduation present in 1984. Best money anybody ever spent as it’s still going strong!

Thumbs Up

But that doesn’t address the fundamental issue—is there any adverse effect of turning a tapered case into a straight-sided case again and again?


I use my 550B that I got for graduation back in 1987.  Still rocking!!!  Just did a few hundred rounds of .44AMP on Sunday.

for some reason...loading .44 AMP makes me extra darn happy!!!!Big smile


Posted By: paul v.
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2018 at 5:46am
I've been using the RCBS carbide 44 Auto Mag die for a good number of years now. My Pasadena only cycles well with max loads so the Starline brass (along with the pistol) takes a beating. I've reloaded this brass with the carbide die enough times to make it almost impossible to make out the head stamp lettering. These cases do not show any signs of fatigue(case splits,incipient case separations,loose primer pockets,etc) from being fired and resized into a straight-walled case from  tapered cases and back again.
Paul V .


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2018 at 7:06am
Terrific! That’s the kind of testimonial I’m looking for. Thanks!


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2018 at 9:46pm
Good information.

I do not shoot enough 44 AMP any more to worry about carbide dies.

The last 5 to 10 years I have acquired some very nice 9mm target grade pistols and I have always used carbide dies.  The 9mm case has an 11 degree taper and after you seat a bullet the cartridge looks like an hourglass.  I have noticed that other handloaders ammo looks like mine and when I ask if anyone thinks that it affects accuracy, no one seems to know.

At the last match I noticed that the best shooter there was shooting some 9mm and I went over to ask about his load and  noticed his ammo did not have the "hourglass" shape.  I inquired what kind of die he sized with and he told me he uses a standard carbide die and only sizes the first 1/16" to 1/8" of the case mouth and uses an old steel sizing die to give a very light crimp.  I asked if it causes any feeding problems with any of his guns and he said no.  He thought that taking the taper out of the case full length sizing causes some accuracy problems, how much he did not know.

now.


Posted By: AndyC
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2018 at 10:38pm
Well, you're pushing a tapered shell through a ring of a specific diameter - of course it'll size it (as much of the length you push through it) to the same diameter.

-------------
http://bane.2hell.com" rel="nofollow - My Iraq Pics


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2018 at 11:07pm
Originally posted by AndyC AndyC wrote:

Well, you're pushing a tapered shell through a ring of a specific diameter - of course it'll size it (as much of the length you push through it) to the same diameter.

I certainly understood that.  I was afraid that not full length sizing on an auto loading pistol would lead to chambering troubles.

I just about bought a steel sizing die to try it and see if there was any difference in accuracy.  I just dreaded the though of lubing cases as small as 9mm.


Posted By: richie_b
Date Posted: 30 Aug 2018 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by BEEMER1 BEEMER1 wrote:



...LUGAR???... Dude, I have serious doubts about this chart...   Tongue


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2018 at 12:51am
I think that is the German spelling.   LOL


Posted By: CrazyLarry
Date Posted: 31 Aug 2018 at 4:19pm
My Hornady dies see fine. I don't notice any difference from my other Lee and RCBS for other calibers.

Carbide dies are over rated. My pistol calibers are "carbide", but, I still use a push-through die (like the Redding one) for 40s&w and 45acp so the level of effort for sizing stage on the progressive is much less.

I do lube all my "rimless" cases, as dealing with case-head separation in sizing die is one of my worst nightmares. I've gotten a stuck shell out of a .223 Lee die, but, it was not fun.

[I use Hornady OneShot and Redding lubes (mostly)]

For case forming, I find Lee lube to be 100% reliable but an absolute mess (hence the need for tumbling with ss pins). But, I only deal with it when working with CDM brass and reforming 30-06 into 300SAV.

I still tumble with stainless steel pins and then crushed walnut w/flitz to get them factory fresh before loading.






Posted By: TRX302
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2018 at 1:59am
Is that the whitish Lee "Alox" lube or something else?

I've used the stuff for 30 years; it's water-soluble, so I just swish them around in a bucket of warm water and spread them out to dry.


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 06 Sep 2018 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by TRX302 TRX302 wrote:

Is that the whitish Lee "Alox" lube or something else?

I've used the stuff for 30 years; it's water-soluble, so I just swish them around in a bucket of warm water and spread them out to dry.

I have used the Lee lube for years and it is my favorite.  It is water soluble and wipes right off.

Imperial Die Wax is great stuff for hard to size cases but hard to remove.
 

http://rg4arms.net/lee-precision-resizing-lube-non-sticky-non-allergenic-two-ounce-tube/" rel="nofollow - http://rg4arms.net/lee-precision-resizing-lube-non-sticky-non-allergenic-two-ounce-tube/


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 3:04am
I recently formed 500 .357 AMP cases using Imperial Sizing Wax. I was too lazy to clean them by hand, so I tossed them in a couple of mesh laundry bags then ‘volunteered to do the dishes’. When my wife wasn’t looking I tossed them in the dishwasher along with the dishes, and they came out completely devoid of lube. Then I sat them in the sun on 100-degree days for a couple of days, and all residual moisture evaporated away. 

And no, our food did not subsequently taste like Imperial Sizing Wax....


Posted By: BEEMER1
Date Posted: 07 Sep 2018 at 6:11pm
Using a RCBS die and new Starline brass I necked all my 357 AMP down with the Lee white sizing lube with no problems.

I am not sure it would work with other brass, especially the ones cut down and reamed.


Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 03 Nov 2018 at 1:35pm
Somebody (not me) has a carbide die set on EBay at the moment with a laughably low opening bid of under $30.  It’s worth somewhere north of $200 IMHO....I know the cost for them new is almost $300, plus you have a long wait for them to be produced.....


Posted By: CrazyLarry
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 1:36am
Just a quick update...

the Lee case lube is the white "paste", it needs to dry a bit after you smear it on as it will get really messy really quickly.

Imperial sizing wax is really the best, but, just as slow.

Hornady OneShot is simple and effective, but, you almost need to stick your cases on a holder and come at them from multiple sides (depending on how out of shape they are). I use these on high-brass shotgun shells for duck loads and it works nice on my MEC before I switched to a SizeMaster.

I've not had much luck with RCBS lube on the rolling pad.


Posted By: richie_b
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 3:35am
Originally posted by CrazyLarry CrazyLarry wrote:

I've not had much luck with RCBS lube on the rolling pad.


I've had good luck with STP Oil Treatment on the rolling pad. A thin bead down each side, squeegee the bead with a business card, and roll the case in it. 44AMP and 357AMP both (and everything else, actually). My RCBS dies are the old style, steel, not carbide. Never had a problem unless I forgot to lube the case first - then it would stick.  Dead

I tracked that Carbide 44AMP set until yesterday, when it went over my 'ceiling'. I don't really need it but if I could pick it up cheap then it would be worth re-selling in the future. Like in 2020, when the first of the Classic Edition New AMP's start to ship.  Disapprove



Posted By: TankMan
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 4:20am
Gads I'm an old guy now! I've not actively reloaded now for some years but I have dies for some 34 different cartridges I've reloaded and I still use case lube every time no matter die set I use or cartridge I'm loading. I've been doing that since I started in the late 1960s. Lube, size/decap and clean the cases including primer pocket. Every time. This old fashioned way has served me well. Bottleneck for reloading is QC on powder charges. I bought a new fangled  electronic powder weight charge thrower contraption but have yet to use it.

44AMP just doesn't seem to be a high volume reloading sort of thing. But if one likes carbide dies I won't rain on that parade. I probably have one of two sets (How could I NOT know? some may have been purchased by my late dad but I still lube the cases)

And if you ask I still lube the cases as I always have -I  use a lube 'pad' my dad made out of brass with a hinged cover- I soak it with light oil roll the case size it and done. I can just hear the cringing from here...
but it works. no wrinkles, creases or stuck cases. Ever.

Jerry



Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 08 Nov 2018 at 4:36am
I use an RCBS case lube die and it works remarkably well on my Dillon press. It has a decapping pin so I remove the pin from my sizer die, which is installed where the expander and powder measure normally go. On a progressive press it makes short work of the job—with each pull of the handle one case is lubed and decapped and the next one is resized. Then the case goes into the bag to be washed.  Once that’s done, the sizer and lube dies are removed, the expander and powder measure go in the second station, with seater and taper crimp dies in stations 3 and 4. Then the cleaned and dried cases are run through for the remainder of the process. 




Posted By: richie_b
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 2:20am
That carbide 44AMP 3-die RCBS set went for $96. Not a bad price - I think I paid that much for my 8mm Nambu die set [not carbide].

IMO, lubing bottleneck cases is a must, carbide or not.   Thumbs Up



Posted By: Pantera Mike
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 4:20am
FWIW before RCBS discontinued the .44 AMP carbide set completely, they cost $271 and there was a 4-5 month wait!  But now you will wait forever. 

They sell a non-carbide set for $170 and you still get the long wait.


Posted By: omie01
Date Posted: 09 Nov 2018 at 12:59pm
Keep an eye out at gun shows too. I found a NEW-old RCBS set in box for $40!! Of course I bought it and now have it for back up.



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