Harry's Lost Caliber |
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Dances with AutoMags
Callahan's Auto Mag Joined: 13 Oct 2011 Location: Valley Glen Status: Offline Points: 530 |
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Posted: 09 Aug 2017 at 9:16pm |
Harry's Lost Caliber. A alluring title
for a tedious technical article about the ".45 ACP Magnum". No .45 ACP
Mag ammunition was ever made and there was only one gun made to shoot this
virtual cartridge. I bought a
gun from Walt Jones in 1980. Walt Jones
and Larry Grossmann were the two managers who ran the factory for Harry
Sanford. Ed O'Neil
brokered the gun for Walt and billed it as an experimental pistol that was the
first .45 Winchester Magnum made by the factory. Ed O'Neil was an outside contractor who did
custom work for Harry. Ed also worked
closely with Larry, Walt and Bob Barbasiewicz.
I eventually
bought a second barrel that was made for the gun. The two barrels are marked, "AMC AUTO
MAG .45 WIN MODEL 280 COVINA, CALIF. PATENTED"
The 10.5" barrel is marked with a "#1" and the 8"
barrel is marked with a "#2". Walt sent Ed
a promised letter on the gun that is posted below: Note: The letter is hand written in red ink on TDE
Marketing Corp. El Monte stationary. "To whom
it may concern. This
Auto Mag frame was made in Pasadena Calif.
In August and July of 1980, I modified the frame to accept the new style
bolt (Carpenter 358 metal). I then
proceeded to make 2 proto type barrels. 1. 10.5" 45 ACP Mag 1. 8" 45 ACP Mag. At the time I did this, no one in the
company had started production. Some time in late July the company
made a few 10.5" 45 Mags. This gun
is my own personal weapon (WSJ 001). I
have been with the company aprox 8 years. Walt Jones Plant
Manager. 9/11/80." Walt Jones
test fired his gun with both barrels using Winchester .45 Win Mag
ammunition. The 10.5" barrel length
was settled on for the production barrel length because the 8" barrel
wouldn't reliably cycle the gun. The longer
barrel was said to develop greater velocities to provide more dependable
cycling. Ed O'Neil thought
the reference to .45 ACP Mag in the letter didn't mean anything as .45 Win Mag
was what the factory settled on and that is how each barrel is marked. I put a few
magazines of new Winchester ammo through the gun when I experienced what is
called a "case separation". I now couldn't chamber a round in the
10.5" barrel so I put on the 8" barrel. I got about 15 rounds out of the 8"
barrel before I had another case separation.
After I got
home and removed the small rings of brass from my chambers, I did some
reading. Chambers that are too long
seemed to be the most common reason for this problem. After inspecting the guns head-spacing, I
found that the chambers of both of the barrels are too long for the .45 Win Mag
round. The case was seating on the
extractor. I ran a piece of .44 AMP brass
into the chamber and the longer brass was too long to allow the gun to go into
battery. What I learned was that the
chambers on both barrels are longer than what is required for the .45 Win Mag
(1.198") and shorter than the .44
AMP (1.298"). I thought
that maybe someone had cut the chambers depth incorrectly. If it wasn't a mistake, what were they
thinking about ? Years later, after
Harry died I met Walt Jones at the Irwindale factory. I asked Walt about the barrel's long chambers. He only remembered that he couldn't find any
brass for the .45 ACP Mag project so Harry decided to chamber his new .45 barrels in the off
the shelf .45 Win Mag ammunition. This
told me that the .45 ACP Mag was definitely a different round that was to use
longer brass and that Harry was directing this project. Earlier Ed O'Neil
had urged Harry to make some barrels in .45 Win Mag but Harry said no. Ed eventually got Bob Barbasiewicz to make up
ten barrels in .45 Win Mag. They look
like his other runs of beautiful unmarked, polished threaded barrels. Wikipedia
says that .45 Win Mag ammo was introduced in 1979 and that the .45 Win Mag Wildey
was available in 1980. I couldn't figure
out what the thinking was for a longer chamber and why the initial reluctance
to use the .45 Win Mag. One evening I
thought out the problem, again, and hit upon a theory that I believe to be
correct. I believe Harry
Sanford wanted the new .45 cartridge to have the same overall length (OAL) as
the .44 AMP Auto Mag cartridge. The .45
Win Mag overall length is .025" shorter than the .44 AMP round that the
Auto Mag pistol was designed to use. Regarding the
OAL, chambering would be the first concern and movement of the ammo stacked in
the magazine would be another. It has
been reported that the shorter OAL sometimes causes the round to go sideways
while chambering. The second
concern would be, what bullet should he use ?
If Harry was to stay with the Auto Mag's 1.298 case length, he would
need a .45 bullet to protrude from the case .30". The .45 ACP and the .45 Win Mag both have
.377" of bullet sticking out of the end of the cartridge case. The lack of
an acceptable .45 bullet using a .30" of protrusion was a problem. If you measure from the nose, of a .45 ACP
bullet, down .30", the dimension of the bullet there must be
.451". On most .45 ACP bullets, at
.30" down the bullet, your case mouth would be sitting on the radius of a
round nose bullet or the angle of a tapered bullet. Apparently it was easier to use a standard
.45 ACP bullet and just make the case shorter. In making the .45 STARK I had to design my own
.45 bullet specifically to provide .30" of bullet protrusion. If one was to
use a standard jacketed 240 gr. .45 ACP bullet, with .377" of bullet
protruding from the case, and an overall length of 1.60", the case length
must be 1.223". Simple
subtraction. 1.60" - .377" =
1.223". Recently I
have had access to some 1.6" blank brass (no head-stamp). I have used it to make 8mm AMP brass. I could use this long brass to determine what
case length these chambers were made for. I trimmed a
piece of brass down to 1.225". and using the WSJ-001 frame, neither barrel
would go into battery. I trimmed the
case down to 1.222" and both barrels snapped into battery. (OAL = Overall Length. CL = Case Length. PRO = Bullet Protrusion.) .45
ACP Magnum OAL = 1.600" CL =
1.223" (Maximum) PRO = 0.377" .45
Winchester Magnum OAL = 1.575" CL =
1.198" PRO = 0.377" .45
STARK (Same as
the .44 AMP) OAL = 1.600" CL =
1.298" PRO = 0.302" Harry Sanford
and Walt Jones were both aware of the existence of the .45 Win Mag cartridge
before they started the .45 ACP Mag project.
I believe Harry was just developing his own .45 round specifically for
the Auto Mag. His intention all along
was to use the Winchester off the shelf factory loaded ammunition in his new
.45's. Ammunition availability and
liability considerations must have played a part in this decision. I believe
that Harry just wanted to say he had developed his own round for the .45 but
settled on the .45 Win Mag. Harry would
certainly be interested in seeing the results of his new cartridge design. The lack of a "parent" cartridge
case to use to fabricate the 1.223" case was the final reason the .45 ACP
Mag project was abandoned. The reason for
the .025" shorter OAL of the .45 Win Mag cartridge has been discussed with
several proposed theories. The first was
that Wildey Moor has small hands and needed a shorter round. An AMT Forum member measured both the Wildey
and the Auto Mag's frame length at the grip.
He reported that the Wildey is bigger !
I believe
that the designer of the .45 Win Mag based it on the Auto Mag cartridge. He may have said, just make the case
.100" shorter and fit it with a jacketed round nose .45 ACP bullet. Some would
deny there is any value to the subtle differences between the three calibers
discussed here. These really are big
differences that effect both usability and performance. My curiosity was spurred by Walt Jones
referencing the ".45 ACP Magnum" in his letter on the WSJ-001 gun and
the long chambers of the barrels. The picture
of the ammunition is: #1 = .45
Winchester Magnum #2 = .45 ACP
Magnum #3 = .45
STARK #4 = 8mm AMP #5 = Blank "parent" cartridge 1.60" (Available from Auto Mag LLC) |
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An armed society is a polite society.
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Gerry
R.I.P. Joined: 08 Mar 2008 Location: MI Status: Offline Points: 1085 |
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Very interesting article.
Thanks Gerry
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XP001
Callahan's Auto Mag Joined: 02 Jan 2012 Status: Offline Points: 586 |
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Thanks so much for sharing this bit of history. I always enjoy learning more about firearms and calibers. I have a few questions,
1 What is the difference in powder cap between the 3 calibers, 45winmag, 45acp mag and your Stark? 2 What difference does the powder cap have on function and velocities? 3 You made the Stark, was it worth the effort to "design" your own bullet to make it happen, or did you use a current design bullet with making a slight change? 4 You listed the specs for your Stark as "Same as the .44AMP", Oal=1600, CL=1.298 and Pro=0.302 Does this mean the only difference between your Stark and the AMP is the bullet Dia.(.44 v .45) If the figures are true as listed that means the .44AMP use a Pro 0.302, correct? Are .44 cal bullets normally available to set at this space? Thanks again for sharing!
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Dances with AutoMags
Callahan's Auto Mag Joined: 13 Oct 2011 Location: Valley Glen Status: Offline Points: 530 |
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An armed society is a polite society.
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Gerry
R.I.P. Joined: 08 Mar 2008 Location: MI Status: Offline Points: 1085 |
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Bruce
I wish you would publish in some form the second volume of your Auto mag series> Gerry
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