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44 AMP Ramshot load.

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Luc V. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luc V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 44 AMP Ramshot load.
    Posted: 26 Mar 2013 at 8:40pm
A question for Lee or other experts please, what is the maximum pressure for the 44 AMP cartridge?
It's just I noticed the CIP data for this cartridge is set to 36985 psi, and I have always used 40611 psi as maximum. I forgot where or whom told me to use the 40611 psi as max...Confused
I know that SAAMI is different, but can't find any data on this.
 
 
 
 
 
I'm tying to "fix" a new load with Ramshot TrueBlue powder (which is in fact Belgian PCL504)
This is the first testload I'm going to use.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luc V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2013 at 5:06pm
I tried the sample cartridges today.
The starting load I choose worked fine. Gun reloads OK and bolt stays open on last shot. So far so good.
Data for the 44 AMP cartridge.
Case: Starline
Primer: Federal Large Pistol
Powder: Ramshot True Blue 14.5 Grains
Bullet: Fiocchi 240 Grains SJSP.
Velocity : 1333 Fps. (as per computed data)
I will shoot some over the chrony later.
Pretty clean burning powder.
This load should be more than adequate to kill some paper targets...
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Auto Mag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 1:09am
Luc, This looks like a very fast burning powder for 44 Auto Mag, also I cannot tell for sure from your pictures, but your primers look like they may be showing signs of flattening, are you getting any case buldging?
 
If you are looking for a Euro-powder have you ever tried Norma R123?  I tried in long ago, but it is very expensive here and came in small cans so gave up on it.  I was told it was the powder Norma used in their original Auto Mag loaded ammo.
 
GH
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Luc V. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luc V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 8:18am
Thanks for your comments George.
Norma powder is available here, but not cheap...
 
No worries about the primers, they are no more flattening as the load I used before with 3N37.
They are Federal primers and are known to be soft. No case buldging eigther. This is not a "hot load".
This Ramshot True Blue (PCL504) is also used in 44magnum loaddata and burning rate is in the area of Blue dot.(sort of)
I used to load my 44AMP with Vihtavuori 3N37 which is also around that burning rate.
Reason is as follows:
I Like to try something different.
I know most of you use the W296 or H110 powder for the 44AMP, but I find this powder is actually to slow for this barrel length. In a Carbine length it should be much more effective.
Check the data below, I 'theoretical' filled a case full of w296, and the % burned when the bullet leaves the muzzle is only 79.8%. Meaning you just burn the rest of the powder in the air in front of the barrel.
I agree, it's fun to see the big balls of fire,Big smile but that is just "a waste' of powder.
My testload with True Blue burns 100% of the powder, with only a case filling of 57.9% and I already get 1333 fps at a 'midway pressure'.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Auto Mag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 1:13pm
Luc,
 
Just looked up True Blue and it is listed as a much faster powder than WW296/H110, and while I agree that WW296 might be a bit slow for the 6 1/2" Auto Mag Bbl, True Blue is listed as even faster than Blue Dot. Shocked  Clearly the powder burning speed tables are not all there is to the science of gunpowder and how well it works in any particular caliber, so there may well be other factors of concern and how much velocity you are trying to get out of your combination is a consideration.
 
In the past I have tried Blue Dot and did not like it, but I was loading at a maximum level, and had clear signs of too much pressure.  If you are loading a more modest round, this faster powder may be working for you, by generating a more sharp pressure curve.
 
Interesting point about the "hardness" of primers, I use CCI 350 primers in Auto Mag loads for almost every powder I have tried and they dont flatten until you are at very high pressures and case buldging is not too far behind.  So I get no early signs of pressure problems that you might get with a softer primer. 
 
If you are looking for a faster powder, I have had good luck in the past with Accurate #9, it was a good clean powder that worked well in a lower velocity loads.  I was impressed with it as a viable option to WW 296 for shorter Bbl lower velocity "paper shooting" loads.
 
Good Luck and please keep us posted on you efforts, it makes for very interesting reading and much better than the head-butting posts we sometimes suffer through,,,  Embarrassed 
 
GH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEEMER1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 3:35pm
Luc said
 
Check the data below, I 'theoretical' filled a case full of w296, and the % burned when the bullet leaves the muzzle is only 79.8%. Meaning you just burn the rest of the powder in the air in front of the barrel.
I agree, it's fun to see the big balls of fire,Big smile but that is just "a waste' of powder.
My testload with True Blue burns 100% of the powder, with only a case filling of 57.9% and I already get 1333 fps at a 'midway pressure'
 
Luc, I know that you are trying to get an efficient target load, but the 20% of the 296 that burns outside of the barrel is really not wasted if one is trying to achieve a maximum velocity hunting load.  It is simply needed to keep the barrel pressure up to reach that maximum velocity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luc V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 3:53pm
Beemer1, that is just what I'm trying to say.
To achieve that wanted velocity you do not that much powder. You get the same speed with other (faster) powders which burns all of it.
I didn't mean it as realy "wasted" in the above post, but more as way to "not optimal".
 
George, I 'm not trying to compare w296 and Trueblue, I know they are to different in burning speed.
My previous load for the 44AMP was with 3N37, and the pressure/speed was close to the one I made so far with True Blue.
 
More to follow later...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEEMER1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Luc V. Luc V. wrote:

Beemer1, that is just what I'm trying to say.
To achieve that wanted velocity you do not that much powder. You get the same speed with other (faster) powders which burns all of it.
I didn't mean it as realy "wasted" in the above post, but more as way to "not optimal".
 
George, I 'm not trying to compare w296 and Trueblue, I know they are to different in burning speed.
My previous load for the 44AMP was with 3N37, and the pressure/speed was close to the one I made so far with True Blue.
 
More to follow later...
 
I guess I am not following you.  Your Ramshot load theoretically reaches 1333 fps at max pressure of 36,466 psi while the 296 load reaches 1528 fps at a max pressure of 38,727 psi. 
 
Can you get 200 fps more out of the Ramshot with 2,000 more psi?  Maybe, I do not know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Luc V. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 4:47pm
Beemer1,
OK, my goal is trying to use a powder which burns 100% of the loading just before the bullet leaves the barrel and get a velocity around 1300 fps. Why, because my previous load (3N37) did nearly the same.
 
Powder is a funny thing, let's look at the data below for the theoretically load with Win 296.
If I lower the load, to match the 1333 fps, I will get an even lower burning %...  Nearly 30% is just "blown out of the barrel" without generating pressure behind the bullet. That's why I called it " a waste" and rather use a faster powder.
I hope this make sense.Confused
 
Oh, btw this is not just a wild guess for the TrueBlue data, I have old (=PCL504) loading sheets for the 44 magnum with similar data, so I tried this data in the 44AMP.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEEMER1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2013 at 5:10pm

Luc  -  I understand that you are wanting a target load and I do the same thing by using Unique in my 44 Reminton Mag revolvers.

All I was saying is if a person wants the maximum he can get out of the 44 AMP or the 44 Rem Mag for a hunting load I have found that the 296 or H110 does that with a lot of powder burning outside of the barrel.  If accuracy is good and velocity is at max, the powder is not wasted.
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